Focusing on 720P. I need your help/Advice...

[E128]

Focusing on 720P...

Focusing on 720P...

RED has sure attracted a diverse audience of users from 35mm professionals to virtual newcomers, so any single solution, short of a traditional optical VF, will not suit the experience of everyone who walks up to the camera for the first time thinking they can nail focus every time. I think that even seasoned professionals too often delude themselves into believing that they can "nail" focus on every shot. I have worked on very large and very small budget digital features as a DIT/VC, all of which used 9" LCDs for the operator, and some of which used larger (15-26") LCDs for (RF controlled) focus pullers. The LCDs all had at least 720P (1280x720) native resolution. Focus was never 100% perfect and it was always difficult, being mostly night shooting in very low light. But these guys were ALL trained, caring professionals who, in their more candid moments, had to admit that, short of "ground glass" focus is difficult; film or video, 720P or 2K or 4K, DV or HD. Focus is just difficult. So even using an EVF with a focus assist as in the Viper VF or a Panasonic 3000 VF or any other such WFM or visual assist it is just going to be difficult. Whether or not you are a trained assistant or operator, the availibility of reasonably priced hi-tech movie making tools will never replace solid professional training and experience, in this case as an assistant or as an operator. Of course, professionals need the proper tools, but without the training and experience the process will be, to some degree, experimental until those things are in place.

Just my two cents.

 

[Joel Kaye]

720P or 2K or 4K, DV or HD. Focus is just difficult. So if the EVF with a focus assist as in the Viper VF or a Panasonic 3000 VF or whatever such device you have worked with is just going to be difficult.

The EX1 is NOT difficult to focus with its' assist. You can go wide open, zoom in and see the difference between eyeglasses, pupils and the ear being in focus.

In fact, the edgy focus assist they use is easier to see on shallow DOF shots than on deep DOF. I've used it with 35mm adapters and it's very helpful. Ergo - I think it would actually kick butt on RED.

Knowing RED has now added edge detection of some sort makes me think they aren't far from turning that edge detection 100% green and showing it over a monochrome image. Bingo.

Having said that, 1:1 focus has got to be on the drawing board too. It is what it is. If you could go 1:1 in playback mode NOW you're really talking useful because focus could be verified after the take.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I've had no problems sight focusing in 4k and 2k for over six months now using 2x image magnification in tandem with the RED LCD, and much easier sight focusing for over 21/2 months now with the RED EVF. IMO the RED EVF, with its adjustable diopter, makes sight focusing a fair amount easier than the LCD, although the LCD is definitely usable for sight focus until you get to the shallowest DOF. The diopter on the EVF is very adjustable and provides a crystal clear image.

For more info on sight focusing in 4k with RED ONE, and specifically usage of the RED EVF for that, this morning I posted a lot of info on that on another thread on RED User:

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9576

The traditional tapes/ACs/focus pullers are obviously a valid focusing scenario with RED ONE, but so is mid/small crew/single operator sight focusing, especially when the camera with EVF or LCD is used by someone with an experienced eye.

Edit: Yes, I would like to see 1:1 image magnification, which would make my sight focusing even easier.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I've had no problems sight focusing in 4k and 2k for over six months now using 2x image magnification in tandem with the RED LCD, and much easier sight focusing for over 21/2 months now with the RED EVF. IMO the RED EVF, with its adjustable diopter, makes sight focusing a fair amount easier than the LCD

Gibby, you're one of the guys that really keeps me motivated. I know you're out doing it for real by yourself and if you say it works I'm inclined to believe it works.

My big concern is tracking focus of moving objects (or moving camera) during a take. I'm not real worried about nailing focus on things that aren't moving. But if someone leans in 6 inches and slides out of focus can you really see it? (obviously, focal length and aperture are going to be big factors in answering that question).

 

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, you're one of the guys that really keeps me motivated. I know you're out doing it for real by yourself and if you say it works I'm inclined to believe it works.

My big concern is tracking focus of moving objects (or moving camera) during a take. I'm not real worried about nailing focus on things that aren't moving. But if someone leans in 6 inches and slides out of focus can you really see it? (obviously, focal length and aperture are going to be big factors in answering that question).

Thanks for the kind words...I'm having fun out here shooting lots of subjects.

I do about every genre but narrative cinema. Yes, keeping focus on hyper shallow DOF moving subjects while sight focusing is tricky. For those types of situations do many run-throughs of the motion and focus of it as you can before the take. I can and have tracked motion subjects in shallow DOF with RED, using the EVF (or LCD). Again, it is tricky, but can be done with practice.

I track like radar fast moving sports and nature subjects. Its been one of my skill sets through the years. That shooting is usually at between f5.6 and f11, thus DOF is not hyper shallow. I've been doing that type of shooting with RED ONE in 4k and 3k using an Optimo 24-290, a RED 300, and a Canon FD 150-600 zoom. I've also been shooting the same fast moving sports and nature subjects in 2k using a RED B4 adaptor, a Fujinon 22x7.3 HD EFP/ENG zoom, and a Fujinon 13x4.5 HD EFP/ENG zoom. The results of that fast following and maintaining focus while sight focusing have been spot on and accurate. Most of this shooting has been at around f8 or f9.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I must say that this discussion was predictable.

A 35mm DOF is challenging. Always was and always will, regardless how brilliant a monitor or VF is. We are talking moving pictures and therefore moving dinstances. Personally I find the RED LCD not good enough for evaluation focus, a 19" monitor for sure is. 720p resolution is fair enough. Pulling the focus on the right time with the right amount is a craftsmanship that has to be learned, be it an AC relying on a collimated optical setup and witnessmarks/measure tape, estimation or a cameroperator seeing the focus and predicting how much the barrels has be to pulled in advance to nail the correct focus.

I never found that running and gunning with a 35mm DOF is easy to accomplish. To say "get an AC" might be a too easy answer but unfortunately is the truth in this kind of scenarios. Otherwise you are highly skilled cameraman in this regard (I'm not) get an AC and don't blame RED for not delivering an 1080P LCD/EVF.

I also found it interesting that there are many who didn't order an EVF. Pulling focus with an EVF is much easier than off a LCD. And the RED EFV seems to be the best in the industry, quoting Gibby in this regard who owns one, uses it and knows how to shoot.

Horses for courses.

Hans

 

[Steve Gibby]

I also found it interesting that there are many who didn't order an EVF. Pulling focus with an EVF is much easier than off a LCD. And the RED EFV seems to be the best in the industry, quoting Gibby in this regard who owns one, uses it and knows how to shoot.

Horses for courses.

Hans

Thanks Hans..

Yes, in 4k, critical focus is a fair amount easier with the the RED EVF, than with the RED LCD. The EVF is higher resolution (720x848 versus 1024x600), and the diopter glass in the EVF is excellent. When you place your eye to the RED EVF, and adjust the diopter for your eyesight, the image becomes very clear, plus with your eye being that close, the image not only is clear, but the dimensions of the image appear quite large. The details of the 2x image magnification function and the focus assist also seem commensurately larger and closer, thus critical focus is easier.

When needed, I do critical focus via sight focusing with the LCD, but there begins to be limitations with that when you get down to wide open apertures and hyper shallow DOF. From mid-apertures (f4) on down to fully closed, the LCD can be used as needed for sight focusing, but the EVF is a better tool for sight focusing with RED ONE throughout the full range of apertures - especially in very shallow DOF sight focusing situations.

Yes...horses for courses...even when it comes to sight focusing.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

thank you for all the input. I guess the answer for now is to keep practicing or hire a "great AC"...I get it. I guess I don't understand in today's age why we still have to use "old" ways such as measuring by tape when for the most part we have technology that can allows to focus by eye (for the most part).

 

[Steve Gibby]

thank you for all the input. I guess the answer for now is to keep practicing or hire a "great AC"...I get it. I guess I don't understand in today's age why we still have to use "old" ways such as measuring by tape when for the most part we have technology that can allows to focus by eye (for the most part).

Practicing is what we all must do to keep our skills sharp, and integrate new technology and procedures. I get out of bed every day fully expecting to learn a lot of new things - and I'm rarely disappointed in that.

The gist of my posts on this thread, and the other one about the EVF that I linked to, is that the old ways can be used, but that the new technology in RED enables some different choices in how we do things - if we want to, or need to go that way. I do about 95% of my 4k and 2k focusing quickly and effectively by eye with RED ONE, using the EVF (preferable) or LCD + 2x image magnification + focus assist. I come from a combined TV/video, DSLR, and film background. I'm fine with trusting electronics, and though my work has been and still is international and national in scope, it is generally with mid to small crews, always non-union, and usually very mobile - thus I need to solve focus and exposure issues quickly and effectively on the run. Sight focusing and using RED's electronics to help me decide on exposure fits my work style perfectly.

Yes, you can focus RED ONE by eye, but you still need to constantly practice your craft and learn to recognize any limitations when they come up.

 

[Barry Green]

Knowing RED has now added edge detection of some sort makes me think they aren't far from turning that edge detection 100% green and showing it over a monochrome image. Bingo.

That would be nice. I turned on edge detection and... well, it's not very useful. It comes into play way too early; you can see edge detection on elements of the shot that are completely and thoroughly out of focus. I think the threshhold is probably set quite a bit too low. It should operate in a way that it's completely not there until something hits maximum focus and then the edge detection should "snap" on. It should quickly "pop" on, not gradually come into play; the tolerances need to be a lot tighter.

Also, it would be very good to allow user-selectable color. JVC and Sony both offer that and it comes in very handy.

 

[Joel Kaye]

you can see edge detection on elements of the shot that are completely and thoroughly out of focus. I think the threshhold is probably set quite a bit too low.

That's too bad. Hopefully, that's something easily adjustable. Sounds like they are on the right path though. I mentioned that about the histogram.. I don't care what is not in focus. I don't care what's 50% in focus. I don't need any of that info. I don't want to see it. I just need to know what's in focus.

I agree with the rest of your comment/advice.

I get the feeling a lot of people don't understand how helpful those tools are because they've never really used them for long enough to see how helpful they are when you get used to them. I just shot 60 hours of documentary footage and never had a monitor to verify anything. Just focus assist. And I was at 1.4 95% of the time.

I'm confident the EVF is really good - but still, why rely on that alone? A focus puller can't double check himself on the EVF.

 

[Barry Green]

I mentioned that about the histogram.. I don't care what is not in focus. I don't care what's 50% in focus. I don't need any of that info. I don't want to see it. I just need to know what's in focus.

Amen.

I'm confident the EVF is really good - but still, why rely on that alone? A focus puller can't double check himself on the EVF.

I'm sure the EVF is every bit as good as everyone says it is. But I'm also sure that you can't accurately pull focus for 4K resolution on a 1280x720 display. I've got a 1280x720 display here, I've got a 24" Dell 2405 that's showing the full image every bit as detailed as the EVF would, and I can put my face up to an inch away from it and count every pixel. And I can guarantee you that it can show proper focus for 720p, but no way would I be confident that it's showing me proper focus for a frame 9x that large.

Electronic assist is mandatory. The "magic assist" and the "edge detail" are a step in the right direction, the only thing really missing from them is the rate at which they respond. The gradual ramping into play is counterproductive. That's what makes the "focus in red" feature on the HD100 or the new BT-LH80 or EX1 so cool -- when you're out of focus, you know it because there's nothing red, and when you're in focus the red just pops up and BAM -- you're in focus. That's what we need here.

 

[Vanderpool Films]

As a 35 & S-16 shooter for 3 decades ground glass focus is second nature. It also helped to come up through the ranks as an AC & focus puller. Now digital cinematography has brought a lot of new chalenges. My current favorite LCD solution is the Panasonic BT-LH80W LCD. I use it with other HD cameras (from Varicam to HVX200) specifically for focus. It has "focus in red" & pixel to pixel maping modes - both equaly accurate & usefull. Has a HD SDI input option. Spot on in 1080 or 720 looking at footage projected on 20 ft. screens. Has anyone tried it on the RED?

Best Regards - Charles

 

[Joel Kaye]

As a 35 & S-16 shooter for 3 decades ground glass focus is second nature. It also helped to come up through the ranks as an AC & focus puller. Now digital cinematography has brought a lot of new chalenges...

It has "focus in red" & pixel to pixel maping modes - both equaly accurate & usefull. Spot on in 1080 or 720 looking at footage projected on 20 ft. screens.

Nice to hear an old school AC testify that these new tools help. I'm getting tired of all the guys down at the union hall posting that a chainsaw will never replace an axe... even though they've never used a chainsaw.

You'd think someone would have used that BT-LH80W with a RED. I wonder how it does.

 

[Andrew Madu]

My current favorite LCD solution is the Panasonic BT-LH80W LCD. I use it with other HD cameras (from Varicam to HVX200) specifically for focus. It has "focus in red" & pixel to pixel maping modes - both equaly accurate & usefull.

Thanks for that heads up. I had my eye on the BT-LH900A which does not support 'focus-in-red' or 'pixel-to-pixel'!

 

[Shawn Bannon]

I use to be an AC and I always carry a Depth of Field Calculator. You can probably download one for your phone, or buy one.

It will at least help you understand if you have a few inches in focus or a few feet. also its easy to check the footage markings on your lenses using a chart and a tape measure then you can see if the markings are close to accurate.

 

[Häakon]

Using 2x image magnification in tandem with the RED LCD is, in my opinion, nowhere near sufficient. A one-to-one pixel mapping solution has been one of the most requested features from day one and is vastly overdue.

 

[Barry Green]

You'd think someone would have used that BT-LH80W with a RED. I wonder how it does.

Yes, I use that exact combination. It is nowhere near sufficient.

The BT-LH80 is a fantastic monitor and, in combination with any HD camera, it's a perfect solution because its pixel-for-pixel and focus-in-red give you exactly what you need -- an electronic, pixel-based solution that precisely alerts you when perfect focus is achieved.

On the Red it's not adequate at all, because the Red only feeds it 1/9 of the total picture area. So the best you can get is pixel-perfect focus for 720P.

I'm asking the Red team to give us the same functionality that the BT-LH80 gives HD shooters: the same crisp response of the focus-in-red, working at a pixel-to-pixel level. The BT-LH80 solution really is perfect for HD. Red can do the same thing for 4K.

Red team, please do. It's vital and mandatory.

 

[Barry Green]

Using 2x image magnification in tandem with the RED LCD is, in my opinion, nowhere near sufficient. A one-to-one pixel mapping solution has been one of the most requested features from day one and is vastly overdue.

2x image magnification, in 4k mode, doesn't even provide as much pixel information as just shooting in 2K mode in the first place. It probably does a 2x on the full sensor instead of the 4k window off the sensor, where 2K mode does a 2K window out of the full sensor. So that means that there's room for more magnification if they'd just sample the 2K window instead of what they're doing now.

Image magnification when in 2K mode is nearly nonexistent.

Pixel to pixel is the only rational, valid, and useful way to go. Anything less is... less.

Doesn't seem like it'd be that hard either. They've obviously already got windowing technology! They have a 4.5K image as-is. Already, currently, they window out of the 4.5K image:
a 4K 16:9 window
a 4K 2:1 window
a 3K 16:9 window
a 3K 2:1 window
a 2K 16:9 window
a 2K 2:1 window

All we're asking for is a 1280x720 window. It really doesn't seem too much to ask. Replace the "2X magnification" function with a "sample 1280x720 window" instead and that'd almost be enough for those of us with BT-LH80's, because then we could use the monitor's focus-in-red feature until Red has time to properly implement their own.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

You don;t need any of those fancy high tech options available to us.... Just hire a great AC and use a tape measure....................... sorry I couldn't help the sarcasm.....:tongue:
I too hope that the RED team implements some new ways of accurately judging focus...