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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Focusing for 4K+ media , challenges to overcome

OK, now I am really scratching my head. The REDucation Open House screening has me both encouraged and disappointed.

Encouraging: The 4 opening commercial trailers, shot on RED, and finished in 2K looked really good.
Pretty sharp, detailed, high contrast, good color, good depth. I thought “OK, things are really looking up.”

Then I heard the next 4 films announced, “Shot on RED” winners, would be 4K finished in 4K.
I got more excited, thinking, “OK, finally I will see what I am really looking for.” Maybe the time before it was the projector's fault, or the playback, or 2K finishing, or something else.

Disappointing: Then the 4 4K at 4K films played, and we were right back to images that were (sorry, just my impression) softer, flatter, more 2 dimensional, dull, shallow,“powdery” as opposed to grainy, sometimes yellowish, often low dynamic range, often weak contrast. The 4 shorts are really good films, one has good use of B/W contrast, all well assembled, good stories with a lot of praise-worthy cleverness. But what happened to the detail of the 4K resolution?? And the other stuff?

What changed from the 2K to the 4K finishing? The projector was the same for all. All shot on RED. Did the playback
change? I think it was all from a server, RR was not announced. Is “4K” finishing killing something? I am really perplexed. It isn't just
focus. I think I am seeing gamma issues, something like HDMI range compression, color issues, in addition to just "softer" than it should be.

I really wanted to just be all excited today. It seems I can at least rule out such potential culprits as the projector variable, and the RR player, at the display end of the stream, and the camera hardware at the other end. There is probably a huge number of finishing variables in the middle that 4K is complicating. Another difference could be commercial films versus independent budgets.

Any comments on that? I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. Just looking for solutions. Am I being too hard on the final images in those shorts? Anyone else seeing it that way? Am I expecting too much from "4K finishing?"
 
Rob McDonough said:
OK, now I am really scratching my head. The REDucation Open House screening has me both encouraged and disappointed.

Encouraging: The 4 opening commercial trailers, shot on RED, and finished in 2K looked really good.
Pretty sharp, detailed, high contrast, good color, good depth. I thought “OK, things are really looking up.”

Then I heard the next 4 films announced, “Shot on RED” winners, would be 4K finished in 4K.
I got more excited, thinking, “OK, finally I will see what I am really looking for.” Maybe the time before it was the projector's fault, or the playback, or 2K finishing, or something else.

Disappointing: Then the 4 4K at 4K films played, and we were right back to images that were (sorry, just my impression) softer, flatter, more 2 dimensional, dull, shallow,“powdery” as opposed to grainy, sometimes yellowish, often low dynamic range, often weak contrast. The 4 shorts are really good films, one has good use of B/W contrast, all well assembled, good stories with a lot of praise-worthy cleverness. But what happened to the detail of the 4K resolution?? And the other stuff?

What changed from the 2K to the 4K finishing? The projector was the same for all. All shot on RED. Did the playback
change? I think it was all from a server, RR was not announced. Is “4K” finishing killing something? I am really perplexed. It isn't just
focus. I think I am seeing gamma issues, something like HDMI range compression, color issues, in addition to just "softer" than it should be.

I really wanted to just be all excited today. It seems I can at least rule out such potential culprits as the projector variable, and the RR player, at the display end of the stream, and the camera hardware at the other end. There is probably a huge number of finishing variables in the middle that 4K is complicating. Another difference could be commercial films versus independent budgets.

Any comments on that? I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. Just looking for solutions. Am I being too hard on the final images in those shorts? Anyone else seeing it that way? Am I expecting too much from "4K finishing?"
Click to expand...

Was the projector the REDRAY laser? Or something else?
 
Nick Morrison said:
I think it's prudent to reserve judgement on 4K screening until it's seen projected on REDRAY and equivalent level projectors
Click to expand...

What Rob is saying is that a lot of so called 4K footage looks soft. I agree. Because it is hard to make genuine 4K.
It won't matter if you screen it on an even better projector, the loss of sharpness is in the media.
Red footage is not quite 4K at this point.
This will become more obvious when people start shooting with the Dragon sensor, and make 4K from that. People will say how more detailed it looks on a 4K TV.
So in this case, what were the old cameras making ? And these will be shots in plenty of light, without difficult dynamic range.
Dragon cameras will be providing some beautiful detailed media for 4K displays. The 6K sensor is in no way over kill.
 
take redmags mainstream...then the world has a tape like media lol
 
Nick Morrison said:
I think it's prudent to reserve judgement on 4K screening until it's seen projected on REDRAY and equivalent level projectors
Click to expand...
I have no issue with the projector. The same projector was showing 2 different levels of results, based on unknown variables somewhere upstream. And 4K footage is going to need to look compelling on all of the commercial projectors. Not just REDRAY.

We have no idea at this time what that "level" of REDRAY projection and playback will actually be. We are simply hoping for the best to be coming from RED. I have very high standards, and this is my 3rd disappointment, and I am not happy to have to say it.

The better the display, the more obvious what is happening with the content. This is why an "evaluation" grade projector could be so useful in the industry. But what was there on that huge "widow maker" size screen was sufficient to raise a lot of questions, the most puzzling of which is "Why did 2K finishing look better in so many ways than 4K finishing?" and hopefully it will stimulate some needed improvement.

The purpose of evaluation is progress.
 
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We use the Zacuto EVF set to the "red peaking" mode and then zoom in on both the RED EVF AND Zacuto EVF.

Checking both images against each other, secures us consistantly pretty darn delightful focus..

Your thoughts?
 
BRANDON JAMESON said:
We use the Zacuto EVF set to the "red peaking" mode and then zoom in on both the RED EVF AND Zacuto EVF.

Checking both images against each other, secures us consistantly pretty darn delightful focus..

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

I have not seen that EVF yet. Is it monochrome with obvious colored peaking ? That would be pretty good. Is it 1:1 ?
The RED LCD focus mode is not bold enough for me.
Canon DSLR running magic lantern is pretty good too, you can select 1st derivative or 2nd derivative for peaking.

When I am not under pressure, it is easier to focus. I click the aperture all the way open, zoom 1:1 then focus then zoom out and click the aperture back to where I wanted it.
This requires time and about 10 button pushes to achieve!
I have no idea why RED does not have a DSLR like focus, which opens the lens first then returns it. Isn't this an obvious thing to do?
Focus at f5.6+ is very vague even with the 'focus' or 'edge' mode because the DOF is rather large. I have to open the lens to nail it.
I hope upcoming firmware adds DSLR like open aperture focusing.
I also would like a 'fine tuner' focus mode that only moves very small amounts to sweeten the focus when it is already close.

These things are needed for a user trying to shoot 4K plus, under less than calm situations out in the field.
 
Les, it DOES have red peaking and 1:1 magnification and is built very well.

We have it mounted next to our on-camera monitor and once both are checked, we are good to go.

Check it out and let me know what you think too.
 
I am hoping to see a 4K demo footage creation contest where the above and other camera wizzard cleverness is applied to making sure the audience can see what 4K (and +) is really all about. I seriously can't wait.
 
Rob McDonough said:
I am hoping to see a 4K demo footage creation contest where the above and other camera wizzard cleverness is applied to making sure the audience can see what 4K (and +) is really all about. I seriously can't wait.
Click to expand...

Rob, I'll show you footage when I get back from Northern India. It will be 4K, using my special shooting and image processing techniques.
 
I hope you will distribute it or a sample on Odemax if that ever happens. i assume red will be shipping redrays by then but one could at least assume there not being a breadth since a twitter at the beginnning of Sundance, Odemax is dead, I hope not but why don't they say omne single word. Red and odemax shouted their glories just before CES and Ted gave interviews that said red and Odemax were meeting every day to work out any problems. And now nothing. nothing. nothing.
 
Still have my fingers crossed that between Dragon, Crimson, RedRay, and Odemax or something similar, RED 'development' is going to have some very cool synergistic stuff to show at NAB. Still looking for that eyeball popping demo. If I suddenly start raving, you will know I have seen something awesome.
 
Rob. Years ago Westinghouse had a slogan. Progress is our most important product.
 
Did they pay it enough attention?

I think Les has evaluated 4K, seen an area (focus) where it is wanting, and is working on techniques to improve it, which I applaud. That is the kind of progress that motivates me. It appears that RED is heavily preoccupied with progressive development right now and I am eagerly awating good things.
 
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