Flash Incompatibility

[Finner]

All the concerns about getting a bad card or having problems makes no sense to me. Just because you have the option to buy flash memory from a local store does not mean you have to. This is about choice. Anyone who would not trust a flash card other then REDs thats fine don't trust it use only RED flash cards, no one is telling you not to.

I feel the main thing that is being discussed here is the option to use flash memory other then RED. I personally doubt that anyone with a RED camera was put in the uncomfortable situation of run out and buy non RED flash cards or don't shoot would choose to buy the non RED cards and use them until they could get the RED ones.

If the option to use outside companys memory is not there then RED owners better be prepared to purchase at bare minimum 3 forms of memory retreval. Either 3 red flash cards or 1 red drive and 2 flash cards or 3 red drives. Production shooting costs (sets, crew, locations, set decoration, other departments rental costs) are all very expensive and I have learned thet you should always have a backup for your backup. So if RED tells me that it is not possible to let the camera use outside memory fine. But as far as people being so scared to use outside memory that they feel they have to tell others what they are allowed to use well who are you to tell anyone.

 

[Andrew M.]

all i can do is scratch that card maker off my list and try again. so the few hundred i saved i just lost on one bad take and i still have no assurances for the next card experiment.

Few hundred you saved you didn't loose, you post your experience on dvx forum or here and hundreds of other users will know what flash memory works and which doesn't, so if you lost on this one you will not loose on some other thing that you will read in these forums all about

Andrew

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think all the paranoia over common FLASH memory is totally unjustified. Sure, there are variations in quality and speeds... Even with the same manufacturer on typically good products. Hard drives have the same issues too, but we all buy those off the shelf -- or at least most of us do. I've bought tons of defective components over the years, many of which were hard drives or other media, even FLASH media. It happens... Test out the media a time or two before using it on a critical production. Can't tell me that even if RED produces a proprietary and certified FLASH media format that there won't be defective ones every now and then. I've got a defective P2 card here that Panasonic let me keep, so I took it apart to study it. ..It happens.

I truly see no reason why the RED FLASH module couldn't house 4xCF cards in a striped RAID configuration and get the proper throughput. Each card could be formatted or initialized via the camera and given a sequence number. On later use when cards are re-inserted later for additional reading/writing, the card sequence numbers could be referenced and it wouldn't even matter which CF slots on the module they were plugged into.

To me this seems like a no-brainer solution that can scale and grow with FLASH technology and with the users' needs. 4x8GB CF cards would be easy to buy just about anywhere right now and we should see 32GB CF cards on the common market by the end of this year. RED could sell their own label of certified CF media too... Why not?

 

[Andrew M.]

CF card is good reliable way to go.
I rather see 8 slots instead of 4 slots for CF cards there.

If we are lucky enough, by the time we see camera production, more of these will be available.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36841

eSATA interface would be more in line with the interfaces that camera will have.
But as I see it coming, the RED FLASH MEMORY INTERFACE for the camera will be plugging in to the RED-DRIVE SATA connector, so anything goes in terms of the interface enclosure for flash memory, as long as it will interface with the SATA connector on the camera
Remember SATA connector on the camera body is modified to supply the power since the original SATA spec do not have provision to deliver power to the SATA device.

Andrew

 

[Craig Schober]

no one is paranoid

no one is paranoid

While errors are a concern... speed is the biggest. The guaranteed minimum write speed has to be greater than 30+MB per second (not just advertised). Speed and reliability are mandatory. If we open to a standard format, say Compact Flash, and someone buys an 8GB card that doesn't work because the write speed is too slow... is it our fault? This is a difficult decision for us. We want an open system. But we also don't want unhappy customers. Two years from now there will be lots of great options. But right now, the options are few.

The good news is that we have the capability to change our flash drive in the future if something great, and open, comes along. Modularity is a good thing.

Jim

no one is paranoid about failing cards. flash memory is very reliable. it's about price/performance. there's a reason why p2 is so expensive and why jim hasn't committed to an open redflash standard publicly. it seems that off-the-shelf (usually cheapest) flash memory cannot currently guarantee required speeds. and we're all tempted to pick up the cheapest flash we see so you're just asking for problems which will become red problems. it's like running non-supported drives on your non-linear system, they might have great specs and you might save thousands and you might never have a problem but you can only blame yourself when your editing system fails.

 

[Finner]

no one is paranoid about failing cards. flash memory is very reliable. it's about price/performance. there's a reason why p2 is so expensive and why jim hasn't committed to an open redflash standard publicly. it seems that off-the-shelf (usually cheapest) flash memory cannot currently guarantee required speeds. and we're all tempted to pick up the cheapest flash we see so you're just asking for problems which will become red problems. it's like running non-supported drives on your non-linear system, they might have great specs and you might save thousands and you might never have a problem but you can only blame yourself when your editing system fails.

I'm not tempted to pick up the cheapest flash memory. In fact I have stated that I would prefer to use the RED offered flash. I dont want it to be red specific in case of an emergency situation. Having Red overnight you flash memory cards does not help when its 9AM and you could just send a PA to a computer store to grab you some flash cards. This is not about what is the best choice. To me that is clearlry the RED flash card. This is about the option and the choice to use other Flash cards in an emergency situation.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

When I was talking about paranoia, it was about sustaining proper performance throughout the entire FLASH structure. Not just reliability. And I was saying that hard drives have this very same issue. Saying that off the shelf flash isn't a usable solution because it can't sustain the advertised the advertised rates is a bunch of nonsense... I don't know of any recording media that can. What matters is that the FLASH memory can at least sustain the rates required by RED, and I say that it can in the proper configuration.

there's a reason why p2 is so expensive

Really? Is there a truly good reason it's so bloody expensive? I know what it would cost to manufacture P2 cards... We almost started doing it here, but at the time it wasn't a good fit for us since it was early in the game. Now we're not really interested due to the direction the whole P2 format has taken (or should I say not taken). There is absolutely no good reason why an off the shelf 32bit PCMCIA cardbus enclosure, 4 x 2GB SD style memory chips, an off-the-shelf 33MHz Broadcom interleaving memory controller/DSP combo chip and an LSI with 256KB EPROM costs $1200. That is insanity. Sorry, but P2 is being sold for 4X what it should be and if Panasonic doesn't push the 16GB cards out of the factory for less than $800 within the next two months, then P2 will be about 12X what it should be for the capacity. And no, I'm not basing my prices off of junk memory. I'm comparing with the same Samsung or Siemens SD style FLASH memory that is zero-fault rated. The very chips already being used in P2 cards. P2 doesn't have to use 4x SD either... The P2 spec does not govern what type of RAM or what RAM config is used inside. Someone could very well license the P2 spec and create P2 compliant PCMCIA adapters that hold single CF cards as long as it meets the bandwidth criteria, which isn't anything special and most current 8GB 120X or 150X CF media is more than half way there. The max advertised transfer rate of P2 is 640Mbps, which no current cards offer... It would take 4 * SD chips rated at 180X to reach that. Current cards are manufactured with 133X SD chips and give a bit less than 500Mbps throughput. The max throughput of a 32bit cardbus interface is 1033Mbps (129MB/s).

Utilizing 4 * CF media rated at 120X shoult theoretically give 576Mbps (72MB/s). 8GB 120X rated with zero-fault chips run about $160 each. Conventional without the ZF testing are about $120 each in retail pack.

I know Jim hasn't made any public commitments with RED FLASH, but I'm assuming will learn this in March or at NAB. And I will be very surprised if it's a proprietary format. Rather I expect it to be based on a common form like CF media. However, RED will most likely contract with a good supplier like SanDisk, Transcend, Etc... and will ship properly ZF tested media with the RED label. Both those manufacturers I just mentioned showd 32GB CF cards at CES with sustained write speeds in excess of 50MB/s for a single card and they should be shipping later this year. There is absolutely no reason to invest in proprietary interfaces or formats.

 

[Jannard]

You guys are speculating professionals... 4 CF cards? Striped together? :-(

We are bench testing a wide variety of flash and I think you all would be very surprised with the results.

Sleep tight. RED is awake.

Jim

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Speculation is my middle name.

Thanks for the input, Jim! As always, your words are encouraging... Now I have to throw away the CF array idea.

 

[Jannard]

I can't imagine the CF card shuffle... and if you get the right capacity with the correct write speed in the convenience of a single unit for the right price... what does it matter if it is proprietary or not? Not syaing it will be, but we should focus on what really matters.

Jim

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I can't imagine the CF card shuffle... and if you get the right capacity with the correct write speed in the convenience of a single unit for the right price... what does it matter if it is proprietary or not? Not syaing it will be, but we should focus on what really matters.

All true. Proprietary systems aren't necessarily a bad thing, as long as they can continuously deliver what the user needs for the right money and be readily available. I just don't want to see RED FLASH become another P2.

Anyway, in RED I trust... I can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

 

[tj williams]

open is good

open is good

JIm

Thanks for the reasurance: I'm sure the RED flash cards will be excellent and work as we always hope all "certified" parts will work.

I wish you had committed to open standards:

Finner quote: "I dont want it to be red specific in case of an emergency situation. Having Red overnight you flash memory cards does not help when its 9AM and you could just send a PA to a computer store to grab you some flash cards."

In a community of INdy, overseas, remote location workers, who have only so much money for backup, there will be instances where availability of drives and cards, immediately, will be critical. Certainly sometimes these non certified parts, may fail, but much more often they will save the day, and bring reliability kudos to the RED.

We lost the viewfinder(it fried) on our HDcam in Zimbabwe Africa several years ago. "Hey it's just not an overnight place." We ordered it "overnighted" from NewJersey and just managed to meet the plane. two days later, in Zambia. If this was an open source computer part like cards or disks we could have had it that afternoon from Capetown.

 

[Draccan]

While errors are a concern... speed is the biggest. The guaranteed minimum write speed has to be greater than 30+MB per second (not just advertised). Speed and reliability are mandatory. If we open to a standard format, say Compact Flash, and someone buys an 8GB card that doesn't work because the write speed is too slow... is it our fault? This is a difficult decision for us. We want an open system. But we also don't want unhappy customers. Two years from now there will be lots of great options. But right now, the options are few.

The good news is that we have the capability to change our flash drive in the future if something great, and open, comes along. Modularity is a good thing.

Jim

Wouldnt it be easy to find a manufacturer to partner with who already make a standard, say Compact Flash, and then have them print a logo on "approved for red" (for the ones with the right speed)? Catering to the RED crowd.

I mean surely that wouldnt cost them much and you only have to guarantee those?

I think it would be great with a common format.

 

[Jarred Land]

you find me a Compactflash card that can write over 30MB/s by itself and I will put those stickers on myself.

 

[Jaime Vallés]

you find me a Compactflash card that can write over 30MB/s by itself and I will put those stickers on myself.

You will put the stickers on the Compact Flash cards, or on your own body?

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Wikipedia Says...

Wikipedia Says...

According to the Wikipedia: "The CF 3.0 and 4.0 standards have also been released which supports up to 66 Mbyte/s data transfer rates, and a number of other features. The CF 4.0 standard supports IDE Ultra DMA 133 for a maximum data transfer rate to 133MB/sec."

To further, the CF standard, as it stands, supports the largest storage capacity of any standard (typical?) flash media at 137GB for CF 1.0. According to the source (CompactFlash Association), CF 3.0 supports 66MB/s. Revision 4, bumps the speeds from 66MB/s to 133MB/s.

The downside of CF... No write-protect switch. Once you've pulled the card, there's nothing to prevent you from trashing your media once you've inserted it into whatever (camera, printer, pc, pda).

My two cents on this topic... Ensure that the camera-side of things regarding flash is at, or exceeding, the specs for the format. I've got a dozen still cameras that use CF and SD media... but imagine my frustration when I discovered that my new high-speeds cards have a faster read/write speed than the camera can support.

 

[Rob Lohman]

According to the Wikipedia: "The CF 3.0 and 4.0 standards have also been released which supports up to 66 Mbyte/s data transfer rates, and a number of other features. The CF 4.0 standard supports IDE Ultra DMA 133 for a maximum data transfer rate to 133MB/sec."

Support unfortunately does not mean it actually is available / works reliably

 

[tj williams]

Suggestion:

Suggestion:

This is what I draw from the posts so far:

First it seems clear: RED developers will choose a card/card array that works at all data rates. RED developers, will certify that this card/card array will work when purchased from RED.

RED will purchase cards from some supplier, and test them, label them and mark them up for their trouble and to make a profit. All Good! and I for one am willing to pay such a markup, the same way I buy the most premium tape, or new (in date not short ends) Eastman film. Failure elimination is good!

If you make available the mfg. model. number of the card you use, then in an emergency we can order up such cards where we are, when we need cards NOW!

If we cannot find the specific card, then we can take a chance on other cards that appear to be fast enough. We can reduce to 2K whatever to be able to shoot then. This is better than not having media that day because it was: crushed, dropped overboard, lost in luggage, set afire, lost in shipping, held up in customs, etc etc.

 

[jbeale]

"theoretically up to X" != "actually achieves X"

"theoretically up to X" != "actually achieves X"

Support unfortunately does not mean it actually is available / works reliably

so true... for example the original SATA spec is 1.5 Gb/sec and the newer SATA is 3 Gb/sec. Since SATA uses 8B/10B encoding, the theoretical max bitrate is 1.2 Gb/2.4 Gb respectively (150 MB/s or 300 MB/sec). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA

Of course that is just the interface, not the media. Does an external hard drive labeled "SATA II" have a true sustained transfer rate of 300 MBytes/sec? Nope.

I have one 500 GB eSATA drive which I measured at 54 MB/sec, but no single drive on the market even approaches the SATA theoretical max.

 

[Finner]

This is what I draw from the posts so far:

First it seems clear: RED developers will choose a card/card array that works at all data rates. RED developers, will certify that this card/card array will work when purchased from RED.

RED will purchase cards from some supplier, and test them, label them and mark them up for their trouble and to make a profit. All Good! and I for one am willing to pay such a markup, the same way I buy the most premium tape, or new (in date not short ends) Eastman film. Failure elimination is good!

If you make available the mfg. model. number of the card you use, then in an emergency we can order up such cards where we are, when we need cards NOW!

If we cannot find the specific card, then we can take a chance on other cards that appear to be fast enough. We can reduce to 2K whatever to be able to shoot then. This is better than not having media that day because it was: crushed, dropped overboard, lost in luggage, set afire, lost in shipping, held up in customs, etc etc.

TJ

The problem mentioned throughout this thread is if RED puts a "red" designed port on their flash card system we will be forced to only use the red type cards. Thus the option of off the shelf cards would not even be possible because they will have a standard industry port that will not fit in the camera. I also would be happy to pay a little more for a RED recomended flash card sold by them. I just would like the port to be a computer standard version so in the emergency situations you can buy off the shelf flash.

When you say if red tells us who the manufacturer is... this will make no difference because if the port is red specific they will not have flash that fits. Computer memory companies mass produce standard port memory. As far as specialty type they rarely do, especially if they do not have the rights to and even if they have the rights to they charge way way more for the same amount of memory if it has a specialty port.