First DSLR lawsuits

[Solomon Nero]

I have to ask, in the first instance how the viewer making the complaint knew the footage originated from a DSLR? People I know that dont shoot, dont have a clue what they are watching.

So whats occured is someone had seisure during a programme. That person complained to the network who then said dont blame us for the programming? its the fault of the DLSR it was shot on?

Sorry cant believe it.

Agreed... +1

 

[ericyoung]

This case has no merit, but that won't stop lawyers and litigation happy civilians trying it on in the hope of a large settlement out of court.

 

[Bryce O]

I would say that DSLR aliasing is much more pronounced than anything that preceded it ever was. It gives me strong headaches, which is probably why I've become such an anti-DSLR guy.

Oh come on! This is the biggest trolling attempt I've ever seen on this forum. Are you guys really taking this thread seriously? If anything the "strobing" and "stutter" from 24fps is about 100x's more likely to cause headaches or trigger epilepsy that some moire that only about... I dunno... LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF DSLR FOOTAGE HAS.

If this is serious, which I would put 100 grand on the fact that it's not... then what the hell is a person with such sensitive epilepsy doing watching TV? With today's fast cuts, heavy image saturation, and fast moving graphics, it seems like the worst possible thing a person with epilepsy could be doing besides a laser light show.

These threads are exactly the kind of BS and miss-information that turns away potential RedUsers... I'm almost considering going with the F3 or FS100 instead of Scarlet or Epic-S just so I won't have to be a part of a wack-job community that claims DSLR moire causes seizures and headaches. Get real.

BTW, I remember seeing moire on a shot of mesh military gear in District 9. Was it the Red One's fault or the DI technicians fault? Either way, if this made-up fairytale case is won in favor of the defendant... I'm suing because it gave me a headache and ruined the rest of the day for me... and I now have a precedent for my case. Thanks!

 

[Erik Franzén]

Oh come on! This is the biggest trolling attempt I've ever seen on this forum. Are you guys really taking this thread seriously? If anything the "strobing" and "stutter" from 24fps is about 100x's more likely to cause headaches or trigger epilepsy that some moire that only about... I dunno... LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF DSLR FOOTAGE HAS.

If this is serious, which I would put 100 grand on the fact that it's not... then what the hell is a person with such sensitive epilepsy doing watching TV? With today's fast cuts, heavy image saturation, and fast moving graphics, it seems like the worst possible thing a person with epilepsy could be doing besides a laser light show.

These threads are exactly the kind of BS and miss-information that turns away potential RedUsers... I'm almost considering going with the F3 or FS100 instead of Scarlet or Epic-S just so I won't have to be a part of a wack-job community that claims DSLR moire causes seizures and headaches. Get real.

BTW, I remember seeing moire on a shot of mesh military gear in District 9. Was it the Red One's fault or the DI technicians fault? Either way, if this made-up fairytale case is won in favor of the defendant... I'm suing because it gave me a headache and ruined the rest of the day for me... and I now have a precedent for my case. Thanks!

Uhm. You do realize that generalizing "the community" based on a single/few posts is, well, presumptuous at best and negligent at worst? Of course this thread is stupid; it's allowed to be, it's off-topic for fucks sake! It's not meant to be The Word Of RED (TM) and hells no when it's just a regular user posting. Maybe you'd have a case if Jim posted that they were now suing Canon for making an inferior camera. Hah! That'd be the day xD

Btw, anyone who got "misinformation" out of a thread that 110% apparently is a joke would be so criminally stupid I'd frankly be shocked if he didn't believe 5D Mark III will do 5K RAW and that RED is just a stupid "scam" (and even more shocked if he wasn't a kid living somewhere in someone's basement shooting home videos - which is fine, really).

...and wackjobs are everywhere. Live with it. No one is taking this thread seriously and even if it was true (that someone is indeed suing) it would be merely a hilarious attempt at getting fame/money (which will fail invariably - or does anyone here think that Canon/Nikon/Panasonic/Sony can't lawyer up beyond the sky if they really need to?).

Anyhow. Back to more useful, informative, and funny posts!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

(snip) ...

I'm almost considering going with the F3 or FS100 instead of Scarlet or Epic-S just so I won't have to be a part of a wack-job community that claims DSLR moire causes seizures and headaches. Get real.

(snip)

Now THAT's a wacko reason to do anything! :w00t:

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Uhm. You do realize that generalizing "the community" based on a single/few posts is, well, presumptuous at best and negligent at worst? Of course this thread is stupid; it's allowed to be, it's off-topic for fucks sake! It's not meant to be The Word Of RED (TM) and hells no when it's just a regular user posting. Maybe you'd have a case if Jim posted that they were now suing Canon for making an inferior camera. Hah! That'd be the day xD

Btw, anyone who got "misinformation" out of a thread that 110% apparently is a joke would be so criminally stupid I'd frankly be shocked if he didn't believe 5D Mark III will do 5K RAW and that RED is just a stupid "scam" (and even more shocked if he wasn't a kid living somewhere in someone's basement shooting home videos - which is fine, really).

...and wackjobs are everywhere. Live with it. No one is taking this thread seriously and even if it was true (that someone is indeed suing) it would be merely a hilarious attempt at getting fame/money (which will fail invariably - or does anyone here think that Canon/Nikon/Panasonic/Sony can't lawyer up beyond the sky if they really need to?).

Anyhow. Back to more useful, informative, and funny posts!

The lawsuit is real. That is not to say it has merit, is justified or morally correct, or not, and even less to say it will be accepted by the court or will win. The lawsuit is against the prodco and the network, not the maker of the camera. Many more weird lawsuits have won their case, so it's hard to tell what will happen. My buddy told me about it, because he thought I would find it of interest - he doesn't bother with the other lawsuits he deals with. He describes himself as "an ambulance chaser" but is really not a bad guy.

And yes, it is also true that DSLR aliasing gives me a headache - my eyes are drawn to sudden motion where there should be none, and it gives me a headache. Maybe you love aliasing, making you think aliasing is more beautiful than a naked woman, and that's your right too, either way.

I have the right to have that headache, to think that Philip Bloom is not a genius, to think that you still needs lights to shoot, to think whatever I like. At least on Reduser, the consumption of DVXuser Cool Aid is still optional, I thought.

 

[Erik Franzén]

The lawsuit is real. That is not to say it has merit, is justified or morally correct, or not, and even less to say it will be accepted by the court or will win. The lawsuit is against the prodco and the network, not the maker of the camera. Many more weird lawsuits have won their case, so it's hard to tell what will happen. My buddy told me about it, because he thought I would find it of interest - he doesn't bother with the other lawsuits he deals with. He describes himself as "an ambulance chaser" but is really not a bad guy.

And yes, it is also true that DSLR aliasing gives me a headache - my eyes are drawn to sudden motion where there should be none, and it gives me a headache. Maybe you love aliasing, making you think aliasing is more beautiful than a naked woman, and that's your right too, either way.

I have the right to have that headache, to think that Philip Bloom is not a genius, to think that you still needs lights to shoot, to think whatever I like. At least on Reduser, the consumption of DVXuser Cool Aid is still optional, I thought.

Oh, I didn't believe for a second that you hearing about it wasn't (EDIT: WASN'T) real! But there is a long way to go from that to a legitimate case that will end up on someone's desk. Also, it makes a lot more sense if it is as you say against the network and production company. I still don't see it as going anywhere though; networks generally have their asses so ridiculously well covered it most of the time seems silly.

Ah. The DVXUser cool aid. I am not fan of any kind of hyper-fandom, although I would say I am particularly fond of RED cameras. But hell, at least fifty percent of that is just because I can come out onto a forum, have a chat with the big man himself, and then talk to people who've been in the biz longer than I've been in existence! I've got no particular love for aliasing and I hate the 'really bad' footage that comes out of unprocessed 7D files that get fixed, re-compressed, and aliased again. My personal little cam is a puny GF1 and I freaking love it - and out of the whole slew of reasons I went with it (form factor, price, GF1 hack etc.) the primary one was little to no visible aliasing in the image. Sure, it sometimes lacks other things but that generally doesn't distract me particularly much to be honest! For still photography, I would of course prefer a bigger more beefy cam - along the lines of 5D Mark II or perhaps a D7000.

But now that we broached the subject matter, let me tell you a story instead. More in particular, a story about me and how I came to become a RED fan and drink the cool aid they offer about the future. See, when I started out (which I still am!) I had this perception that the 'best image' came from film. It was fact. So I'd been told. My goal being the perfect image at any cost, I set out for search of cost analysis. The analysis proved disheartening.

Not only was film generally very expensive, time consuming and not even close to my expected price range - it also came with a slew of quirks that my preferred shooting style wouldn't work with! Disappointed, I set out to search for alternatives to the holy grail that was film. Search after search turned out the DSLR craze that was buzzing around. Excited, I picked short after short apart and went looking for what this amazing new tech would hold. I was bound to be once again back to zero as I found out that while it solved my budget issues, it was a much less than desirable outcome in terms of imagery. That's when I found out about something called 'RED'. Having not a clue about what it was, I plugged in the words unto Google and off I went...

...right to red.com. The price was right. The image was right. The only thing missing was context. Context meant everything. How good was this 'RED One'? Hadn't I heard this was all a scam? Oh well. My search was becoming tired anyways. Why not give 'em a shot and see? So I read. About the upcoming EPIC. About Scarlet. About Monstro. About everything really. Eventually, I came to this place when I accidentally clicked a few too many links on the main page. RECON caught my attention. So I read some more.

72 hours after starting my reading my future in film making had been realigned. Film was of no concern. The aesthetic was still there, but the 'inferior' RED format that I thought to be my temporary placeholder until I could catch a break and get some serious equipment was no more. RED was my format of choice. I'm a math guy. A science-y guy. I like numbers in other words! And RED's numbers were yummy and checked out just fine with everything I know (which, as far as photography is considered, is admittedly not that much).

But wait a minute! What happened then? Well. I bought my GF1. HUH?! WHAT?! WHY?! "You said you wanted the 'perfect image'!". Which, indeed, I do. At which point, anyone who knows anything about learning, knows that you don't start with the highest of high-end tools - if for no other reason than the fact that using a more limited tool creates a more creative mindset. It's much easier to experiment with a 400$ camera and a dozen lenses than with 40k$ camera and 30k$ lenses as an amateur making mistakes - a lens breaking right now would mean a few dollars lost; a Leica breaking would mean...well, to quote my favorite programmer: "This is a bit more expensive than my previous turbo-Ferrari habit, but not too bad." (On spending $2 million on building rockets)

All aesthetics are interesting. Even crazy and weird ones. My great love for the DSLR revolution comes from how it has brought down the entry barriers for everyone. I still believe in searching for great image quality; I simply don't believe that I've earned my right to own such a camera yet. To draw an analogy: giving an EPIC-X to me would kinda be like giving a Ferrari to your sixteen year old daughter; it's more likely to spoil them than to teach them the value of what they've been given. Now, if one has worked up that money by saving or the like and then still want a Ferrari as a first car... then it's another matter entirely.

I put my cash where my mouth is. When I started programming I didn't have an i9 with a tower, liquid cooling, and a slew of very expensive software and gear - reference monitors, recording, etc. - I literally clawed my way up the ladder to get there. So, while the numbers do matter, having fun and doing your thing is just as important! For me, working on a lowly GF1 let's me get going and learning without all that annoying aliasing craze while still not cashing out a fat check into a passion that I am not that knowledgeable in yet. An amateur with a RED One is like a civilian in a tank - sure, he might just figure it out, but you know he's gonna kill someone in the process!

Okay okay. Off my self-proclaimed soap box. :rolleyes5:
BOTTOM LINE - Philip Bloom is no genius. DSLRs are not meant to rule the world. A guy trying to sue for getting nauseated or whatever by some aliased footage is not cool. Point of the story being: there are still people who believe in image quality first! :cheers2:

 

[Bryce O]

Uhm. You do realize that generalizing "the community" based on a single/few posts is, well, presumptuous at best and negligent at worst? Of course this thread is stupid; it's allowed to be, it's off-topic for fucks sake! It's not meant to be The Word Of RED (TM) and hells no when it's just a regular user posting. Maybe you'd have a case if Jim posted that they were now suing Canon for making an inferior camera. Hah! That'd be the day xD

Btw, anyone who got "misinformation" out of a thread that 110% apparently is a joke would be so criminally stupid I'd frankly be shocked if he didn't believe 5D Mark III will do 5K RAW and that RED is just a stupid "scam" (and even more shocked if he wasn't a kid living somewhere in someone's basement shooting home videos - which is fine, really).

I'm not talking about me personally... but I see threads on other forums all the time where threads here are taken out of context. Panny and Canon fanboys are just waiting to snatch up anything negative/joking here and post it as fact elsewhere, not everyone can read through the lines... or wants to.

And of course I KNOW, that most people aren't here are wack-jobs... but Redusers are starting to get the reputation of camera/DSLR-bashing nazi's. Even by just owning one, people assume you subscribe to some of the insane discussions that manifest as threads here... just trying to give a heads up.

 

[Steve Gal]

This is not just Beta aliasing. This is aliasing in HD!!!!!!

 

[Erik Franzén]

I'm not talking about me personally... but I see threads on other forums all the time where threads here are taken out of context. Panny and Canon fanboys are just waiting to snatch up anything negative/joking here and post it as fact elsewhere, not everyone can read through the lines... or wants to.

And of course I KNOW, that most people aren't here are wack-jobs... but Redusers are starting to get the reputation of camera/DSLR-bashing nazi's. Even by just owning one, people assume you subscribe to some of the insane discussions that manifest as threads here... just trying to give a heads up.

Fair enough.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

In court you have two sides. The DSLR side has tons and tons of greedy accessory makers and self-proclaimed gurus to tell people what they want to hear about their new toy - much of this is nonsense and misinformation - like the recent Zacuto shoot-out that concluded that DSLRs have almost the same dynamic range as Red Mx - which is patently ludicrous if you have shot both for more than 20 seconds each - just to give one obvious example.

These statements need counter-arguments, which you get here, not just in praise of Red but in praise of film, Alexa, the F900 and other genuinely professional tools, along with a genuinely professional approach to shooting.

I think it's important that we get the counter-arguments out there.

and BTW - I'm not just a Red fanboy - I still prefer film, and I also think 2/3rds cameras have their place in non-fiction.

 

[Bryce O]

In court you have two sides. The DSLR side has tons and tons of greedy accessory makers and self-proclaimed gurus to tell people what they want to hear about their new toy - much of this is nonsense and misinformation - like the recent Zacuto shoot-out that concluded that DSLRs have almost the same dynamic range as Red Mx - which is patently ludicrous if you have shot both for more than 20 seconds each - just to give one obvious example.

I don't mean to start another DSLR vs Red thread here... but on what grounds do you stand that allow you to conclude that the test results are nonsense and misinformation? These tests were conducted by respectable professionals and seem right on the money with all their measurements, but when they rate the DR of the DSLRs as being close to many professional cinema cameras then they're all the sudden misinformed and it all must be a conspiracy to sell gear? Says who? The Canon DSLRs lack color-space and resolution... but they sure as heck have allot of DR. Canon makes great sensors, they're designed from the ground up to mimic the latitude of film for still shooters, simply switching the mode to "video" doesn't magically de-engineer the sensor to only 6-8 stops of exposure (this is that wack-job logic again). The recording format sucks... but they honestly do hit around the 11 stops mark... with the Technicolor profile, you could probably hit 12 on the 5D (Shane Hurlbut has claimed the 5D can hit 12 stops on many occasions). If they were really only 6-8 stop cameras (like so many people like to pretend they are) they wouldn't be nearly as popular. The image would just be flat and crappy and nobody would be buying them.

So the DSLR's are finally proven by industry pros to have close to the same dynamic range as a Red MX... so what? It doesn't de-value the Red at all. Red still has higher frame-rates, resolution, color space, RedRAW, ect. I don't see any problems with that and I have no less of a reason to not buy an Epic or Scarlet when they become available.

Like I've always said... DSLRs are probably going to help Red in the long run and they should be encouraging their use. Not on big-budget sets obviously... but there are many new shooters and photographers who are getting into the digital 35mm format, that will eventually start making good money, and end up shooting Red. But if it wasn't for the DSLRs that allowed them to get into the realm of 35mm digital cinematography... they wouldn't be doing it at all. So that right there is creating a new generation of cinematographers and directors that love small form-factor cameras and the digital work-flow. Where else besides Red are they going to go? The other guys sure aren't delivering... they're just sticking bigger sensors in the same lame-old camcorder bodies. Nothing revolutionary about that.

 

[Dan Kanes]

I'm going to have to agree with Rob's Assessment of these Tests.

I'm not going to go too far here - but Tests are often done with a certain target result in mind. Like documentary filmmaking - it's not a Court of Law, it's more like well-funneled result assaying and bending ("most" "tests").

As for professionals: What is your definition of a professional? Mine is anyone who gets paid for their work, and hopefully does it well. That doesn't make someone an engineer or scientist. This is art, or (very) soft-science for many.

Regarding the original topic of this thread:

WHO TF Cares?

not me. I suppose that is a weird lawsuit, but I think it's frivolous at best. If you are "prone" to epileptic reaction to television you shouldn't watch television. Period.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

SUre most cameras alias here and there - but not every second shot in a super-pronounced way.

I frankly don't know ANY camera that does that.

I'd agree that DSLR is worse and more frequent than other cameras ... but this issue has been blown WAY out of proportion.