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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

First Clip from Crossing the Line

Posting footage from an unfinished camera WILL undoubtedly cause a lot of questions from current re(d)servation holders and future buyers. We're very fortunate that RED has decided to be so open about their development but they should accept (and welcome) any just critique as well as any suggestions and valuable feedback that this community gives them. It's a yin-yan thing as I see it.
 
re Gavin G's comment: it seems to me that if you can't live with you've seen to date, and you don't trust Red to provide a satisfactory solution to it, then you should not order the camera until you have whatever info you need. Jim has provided some info along the way, but I don't think ultimately he owes anything except for a refund if you decide to cancel a reservation.
 
If RED provides me an answer to a question about their product I trust it will be honest to the best of their knowledge. Some people might not and that's their judgement call.

In the case of a rolling shutter I don't think it is likely it will be corrected through any software means and I think Jim's statement that we shouldn't make assumptions based on an alpha camera was as a result disengenuous. He was implying the effect would be resolved in the final camera. If he outright says "it will [be reduced/not be/be] in retail cameras" then I'll believe him.

He's indirectly made a claim. I wanted to alert him to this fact in case he wants to retract it if it's not true.

RED right now is for the first time starting to actually play some pretty unfair marketing games with the Peter Jackson footage. IF they posted it and said "This is just for shits and giggles don't interpret it to be reflective of RED quality" then I would just watch it for fun and dream of all the things RED will be able to do some day. But the *expressed* purpose of posting the Peter Jackson footage was to *market* the quality of RED. When RED says "Check out this footage it's badass". They've decided to endorse it. They endorsed it at NAB and were perfectly happy to take all of the compliments it received.

So then they opened their doors to the internet and upon further reflection the 'badass' footage had a few little quibbles they're obligated to take criticism.

You're assuming RED *can* fix every problem. That's a false assumption. They can't fix everything despite the marketing of "no compromises" compromises are always taken. If they had made a 2k chip they might have been able to coax out some more sensitivity, but they compromised sensitivity for resolution. RED could have made a super badass Black and White camera but they sacrificed a bit of resolution for color. The rolling shutter is no different. It's a compromise to deliver a higher quality image. And it's not a question of "do I trust RED to fix it." It's a question of "Can RED fix it or should I just be aware of it?"
 
How do you know that Misterium is not 5T or 6T CMOS and Alfa was 3T.
Also you can correct a lot of imperfections on the CMOS itself or on the daughter board.
Also, if this CMOS is project in progress and RED owes the design rights, it could be changed or improved at any time.
Remember RED is modular, you can upgrade the CMOS as well.
 
Andrew said:
How do you know that Misterium is not 5T or 6T CMOS and Alfa was 3T.
Also you can correct a lot of imperfections on the CMOS itself or on the daughter board.
Also, if this CMOS is project in progress and RED owes the design rights, it could be changed or improved at any time.
Remember RED is modular, you can upgrade the CMOS as well.
Click to expand...

Anything is possible but would you do all of your tests on a wildly different sensor design? That would seem to negate all of the testing prior and be a completely bone headed move and tack on another 6 months of development time. It would be a very safe wager to say the Mysterium design is almost 100% design locked at this point. If RED wanted to add 60fps 4k over REDCode and they managed to find a new DSP and RAM solution then sure they could delay it a few months and update that bit without very many design implications. Changing your sensor architecture.... that's RED Two.
 
Wow- I am staggered at the astounding nit picking going on. For years we have worked 4.2.2. in post pipelines and now people are worried about "rolling shutter" - defining it as an optical and post problem (?????) and even getting righteous about it?

The backlash, it would seem, has started. Everyone now wants the earth, moon and the stars for sixpence.

I tend to notice that the most technically uptight people on webgroups generally tend to make the worst films (usually as a result of an asberger's like inabilty to focus on the "larger picture"). Perhaps people should relax and be thankful for the fact that 1 year ago for the same cash, they could buy a 1/3 chip camera and now a viable alternative to 35mm film is available to them with 11.3 stops of latitude, 4.4.4. and a 35mm sized sensor.

Grow up for gods sake. If you don't want it don't buy it.

The camera works.

worry about the script.

the minutae is for the geeks.
 
jtm said:
I tend to notice that the most technically uptight people on webgroups generally tend to make the worst films.
Click to expand...

On behalf of technically gifted people everywhere, I'll try not to take that personally. It's sad that an open honest discussion of RED's imperfections elicits such an acerbic response from some redusers. Fine if rolling shutter and compression doesn't affect you, god speed in ignoring all discussions about it.

Seeing as this is a CAMERA forum and not a screenwriting forum I'm not going to discuss the implications of RED on my screenwriting abilities. So perhaps you have found yourself somewhere you did not intend to be. The camera obviously produces an image. If that's all you care about. Be gone with you.
 
Hello guys,

first poster troll here - focusing completely on the big picture and the art of cinematography.

To me - everything I've seen coming from the Red camera in terms of stills and motion looks like 24fps DSLR. The magic isn't there for me (with all due respect) and it proves my own theory that resolution has very little to do with artistic quality. Even if I'm fully aware that Mr Jacksons clip was shot with the alpha prototype it's still a bit surprising that a crew of 150 couldn't create a more 35mm competitive end result.

I'm full of hope that the Red will introduce a workable 4K pipeline since I shoot a lot of green screen work but for location dramatic work I actually think what I've seen is too sharp. Too clean. I would be a bit affraid to give a name actor the 4K treatment. I would love to someway have Red integrate with Cineforms NEO 12-bit lossless codec.

I'm not here to upset anyone - just to post my opinion respectfully since I plan on using the Red.
 
Munthe:

1) Did you see the movie in our theater digitally projected at 4K?

2) Mr Jackson shot this in two days with 1.5 - 2 weeks of post. The footage was graded etc. to his liking. I sometimes don't like how certain movies look, it rarely if ever has something to do with the camera.

3) If it's too sharp or too clean you can easily add grain / noise / soften filters etc.

4) Why would you love for us to integrate with Cineforms NEO 12-bit lossless codec? We have our own 12-bit codec in both lossy and lossless forms.
 
This is all about outputting to REDCODE. As it looks now you'll be able to set bitrate options including an archive option.
 
Rob Lohman said:
This is all about outputting to REDCODE. As it looks now you'll be able to set bitrate options including an archive option.
Click to expand...

OOooo! *teehee*

How will one be able to record said different bitrates? Will this be opened up as new faster HDDs and CF flash options become available.
 
I believe what Rob is talking about is the Redcode quicktime codec. A VBR mathematically lossless option is very usefull as an intermediate codec.
Say you want to archive your 4k grade master. Currently there is only none16, microcosm or sheervideo that offers a RGB codec at above 8 bit per channel.

Or if you convert in Redcine there is currently no lossless intermediate codec that supports RGB at above 8 bit, besides the above options.

Also if you want to work in lossless RGB, there is currently no codec that can render in >8 bit inside FCP. Using a 12 or 16 bit bit RGB lossless Redcode allows you to use the 32 bit float render option inside FCP.

This is very very good news!
 
Munthe said:
Even if I'm fully aware that Mr Jacksons clip was shot with the alpha prototype it's still a bit surprising that a crew of 150 couldn't create a more 35mm competitive end result.
Click to expand...

Hello Munthe and welcome to the forum! Im a little confused about your post, where did you read that this was a 35mm vs Red test? I agree with you that It dident look like 35mm. But should it?

Put it this way. I dont think there is any problem making the tiny 1k clip to look like something coming from analog 35mm. I have done it myself and sure other can as well. Do mind that this is from a highly compresed file. Think what you can do with the raw footage... I really dont thing PJ intention was to make it "look like 35mm". He made it look like the way he wanted.

I dident like the grading of the clip. Thats my honest opinion. Though i do see tons of potensial for this camera only judging from photos and smal clips.
 
Concrete,
Rob is talking about workflow on a computer, not about in camera recording.

Munthe asked:
Munthe said:
I would love to someway have Red integrate with Cineforms NEO 12-bit lossless codec.
Click to expand...

Rob answered:
Rob Lohman said:
We have our own 12-bit codec in both lossy and lossless forms.
Click to expand...

So Munthe was talking about having a 12 bit lossless intermediate codec on his computer, Rob answered that the REDCODE RGB quicktime codec supports a lossless archive option.
 
> This is all about outputting to REDCODE.

Maybe he means "output" from the NLE, and not "recording" from the camera?
 
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