Final Cut Real Time Playback of Proxies

[Jeremy Morrison]

This issue has been brought up several times before but I just can't seem to find any solution which works and was hoping someone might be able to recommend something I am missing. I've recently prepped my machine for a new show I am starting to post. This issue did not crop up for me in the past so I'm not sure what is different now.

I've recently performed a clean install of the OS (10.6.6) as well as a new install of Final Cut Studio 3 on my MacPro (8 core, 3ghz, 8gb RAM) with an ATI Radeon X1900.

I'm trying to get real time playback of proxies of ANY flavor (P, M, or H) within Final Cut. Sequence settings are 1920x1080, ProRes 422(HQ), 23.98, Unlimited RT enabled, Playback frame rate full, Playback quality dynamic. The RED media is stored on an Xserve and connected via a fiber card.

Getting real time playback should be possible, right? Any thoughts as to what I might be missing would be appreciated.

 

[BigLu]

May i suggest you dont use proxys for post at all.
There are a good few hundred posts on this forum to technical reasons why.
But im not very good with the search engine on here.

So if you want to make your life easier.
Transcode to ProRes the preparation you spend in the beginning will save you un real agony later.

Best of luck
Luis

 

[Jeremy Morrison]

@BigLu: I have to use proxies because of the sheer amount of data I am working with. Also, this was never an issue for me in the past so I'm kinda befuddled as to what I might be missing.

 

[Joe Kleber]

Getting real time playback should be possible, right? Any thoughts as to what I might be missing would be appreciated.

Hi Jeremy

Included with the RED FCS installer is a “Using Red Media with Final Cut Studio 3 Whitepaper”.

https://www.red.com/support/9/release_history

Have you read this document?

IF not, start on page 12, follow the directions carefully, and go from there.

 

[David Battistella]

Jeremy,

Real time debayer of r3d media is suitable for screening clips but it is not suitable for an editing pipeline with reams of data.

If you render the media with a rocket card you could edit it all on fw drives and then conform back to r3d.

What you are attempting is barely doable and the bottleneck is not in the hardware, it's in Red code. It's just not really meant for real time on long form projects.

If you want to try P proxies then you can make sure you drag a clip into the sequence and hit yes when the prompt comes up. Also check to be sure it's not the audio that is giving you the red bar.

David.

 

[Jeremy Morrison]

@Joe: I'm familiar with the whitepaper in detail and have followed it very closely.

@David: Reams of data notwithstanding, if I could even get even one clip to playback without dropped frames like I used to be able to, that would be nice. I just can't seem to diagnose what is different with my system after reinstalling my OS and FC studio.

The P proxies are of a frame size (480x270) which Final Cut does not allow RT playback of. A P proxy dropped into a timeline (selecting yes) results in a red bar requiring rendering. I can of course make a sequence with an M proxy (hitting yes when I drop a clip into the timeline), and then use P proxies (scaled 213.33%). This will result in an acceptable RT playback format, but again, any proxy flavor seems to choke with my current setup.

 

[Bruce Ingram]

On a similar system we get real time play back in FCP7 running off of a 4gb (was 2gb) fiber SAN using M proxies. We get that as long as the proxies do not stack and I push the protocol to have playback quality set to low.

On that system we also do not monitor out, so that may cause some drop in playback, I do however get real time on our 12 core monitoring out via a Kona 3.

So, I might suggest lowing your playback quality and/or disabling any external monitoring if you have it. Of course, it could also be a 10.6.6 issue, I have yet to allow 10.6.6 to be installed on any workstation.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Currently doing an additional edit to a project conformed to m proxies on 10.6.6/fcp 7.03

As long as I am happy with the lower playback rez, it works fine...ish.

 

[Jeremy Morrison]

@Bruce: Thanks for the suggestions. I have disabled any sort of playback and even removed our Kona 3 to take it out of the equation. I've tried dynamic / low for playback settings with no luck.

@Gunleik: Well, I suppose it can be done. Just wish I knew where the bottleneck was on my particular system.

I've run a utility called Xbench to determine my system performance but I'm not sure what is required for R3D proxy playback so I don't know where I might be lacking.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Disk speed shouldn't be it.
Debayering is where it lags.

The way it works over here, is that unrendered clips go soft when I hit play.
I am in the fortunate possision that I just know that the clips I have to choose from actually are not soft...

But this is sort of how it has allways worked.

In the system setting/redcode control panel I have set it to "auto"

 

[Richard Foster]

Besides saying yes in the sequence dialogue window you have to set the sequence to REDCODE, not Prores. REDCODE is a read only in FCP so you won't be able to do dissolves or render anything, but you can cut. Hope this helps.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Besides saying yes in the sequence dialogue window you have to set the sequence to REDCODE, not Prores. REDCODE is a read only in FCP so you won't be able to do dissolves or render anything, but you can cut. Hope this helps.

hm... ok...

Allways used the prores default here...

 

[Stephen Strangways]

This issue did not crop up for me in the past so I'm not sure what is different now.

What has changed is not your system, it's the footage.
The very early camera firmware builds recorded footage that was much easier for Final Cut to play the proxies of in real time.
Then the R3D format got more complex, but a few builds had a "MAX" checkbox in the recording options that you could un-check, and get back to the older, more basic footage that Final Cut could play the proxies of in real time.
Current firmware builds do not have the option of disabling "MAX," so all footage shot with current camera firmware is virtually impossible for Final Cut to play the proxies of in real time.

I would suggest you try Premiere. It can load the R3D files directly, and the Mercury Playback Engine does a much better job of playback than Final Cut ever could with the proxies, even more so if you have an nVidia CUDA card.

 

[Bruce Ingram]

Might be a shot in the dark, but I have had bad OSX installs in the past, maybe (long shot) it's a screwy install of the os or maybe even FCP, considering you were doing well prior to it.

It would suck, but maybe try a fresh install again

@Stephen We've been editing from build sixteen up to now and FCP performance has been the same, I honestly think that's not the issue. A change to Premiere, while a good suggestion, may simply not be an option, I know it wouldn't be for us.

 

[Richard Foster]

I have had no trouble with M proxies from 4.5K Redcode 42 files, that's 1120x480. Mac Pro 2008 (3) with 2 quad core 2.8 Ghz Intel Xeon, 14 GB RAM, OSX 10.5.8. Sure, they're soft in motion, but if you stop the freeze frames are sharp if you need to check focus.

 

[N_Villers]

FUD

FUD

Jeremy,

Real time debayer of r3d media is suitable for screening clips but it is not suitable for an editing pipeline with reams of data.

If you render the media with a rocket card you could edit it all on fw drives and then conform back to r3d.

What you are attempting is barely doable and the bottleneck is not in the hardware, it's in Red code. It's just not really meant for real time on long form projects.

http://www.filmweb.no/kino/article207868.ece?show=trailer&trailerNum=2

If you want to try P proxies then you can make sure you drag a clip into the sequence and hit yes when the prompt comes up. Also check to be sure it's not the audio that is giving you the red bar.

David.

Wrong. Exactly the opposite, you hit no when the prompt comes up.

Besides saying yes in the sequence dialogue window you have to set the sequence to REDCODE, not Prores. REDCODE is a read only in FCP so you won't be able to do dissolves or render anything, but you can cut. Hope this helps.

Also wrong. Never worked this way.

What has changed is not your system, it's the footage.
The very early camera firmware builds recorded footage that was much easier for Final Cut to play the proxies of in real time.
Then the R3D format got more complex, but a few builds had a "MAX" checkbox in the recording options that you could un-check, and get back to the older, more basic footage that Final Cut could play the proxies of in real time.
Current firmware builds do not have the option of disabling "MAX," so all footage shot with current camera firmware is virtually impossible for Final Cut to play the proxies of in real time.

I would suggest you try Premiere. It can load the R3D files directly, and the Mercury Playback Engine does a much better job of playback than Final Cut ever could with the proxies, even more so if you have an nVidia CUDA card.

Exactly right. Use premiere. The proxy workflow is broken and I think the above description of why is a very good guess.

Before the RRcard I edited quite a lot of material using the p proxy on a laptop and m proxy on an 8-core. While as Gunliek mentioned it was soft it had realtime playback. I just tried a test on my 8-core that worked flawlessly before with FCP and m proxy and now I cannot get realtime playback with any flavor.

The combination of clipfinder and proxies was quite a robust workflow for shortform or quick turnaround IMO. I even once edited a theatrical teaser for a feature while on set on a laptop. We had picture lock 2 days after wrap. All with proxies.

http://www.filmweb.no/kino/article207868.ece?show=trailer&trailerNum=2

 

[David Battistella]

Jeremy,

Perhaps it is the length of the takes? Are they long and are you putting several cuts in them. I agree that it is possible but is sounds like there is some kind of lag somewhere.

The cable distance should not matter on FIBER, maybe the SAN setup or the amount of bandwidth you are allotted?


@Richard. As far as I know REDCODE is a "no no" as it is a read only codec that will not allow rendering.

From the WHITEPAPER:

"2. While editinginFinalCutPro,setyoursequencetousethe“REDusingProRes” sequence preset you created earlier. Also, for maximum responsiveness while you edit, set Final Cut Pro to use Unlimited RT."
Creating a “RED Using ProRes” Sequence Preset in Final Cut Pro
If you plan to work on lots of projects that use native RED QuickTime files in Final Cut Pro, you may find it convenient to create a custom sequence preset. Because RED QuickTime media is read-only, you need to make sure the Codec pop-up menu in the General tab of the Sequence Settings window is set to Apple ProRes 4444 in order to render and play effects such as transitions, filters, and motion settings.
To create a sequence preset for RED QuickTime media:
1. ChooseFinalCutPro>Audio/VideoSettings.
2. OpentheSequencePresetstab,selectoneofthepresetsinthelist(theApple ProRes 4444 1920x1080 24p 48 kHz preset is a good one to start with), and click Duplicate to make a copy.
3. When the Sequence Preset Editor appears,enter a new name(such as“REDUsing ProRes”) and description in the top two fields.

David

 

[David Battistella]

Wrong. Exactly the opposite, you hit no when the prompt comes up.

Um.

You are wrong on this. Hitting yes in FCP gives you the "correct" frame size and the the "correct" codec selection.

Maybe explain the correct way in FCP instead of telling the person to use other piece of software. That is not really a solution.

If you are going to shit all over my post at least pick the part you think I am wrong about or back it up.

David

 

[N_Villers]

Um.

You are wrong on this. Hitting yes in FCP gives you the "correct" frame size and the the "correct" codec selection.

Maybe explain the correct way in FCP instead of telling the person to use other piece of software. That is not really a solution.

If you are going to shit all over my post at least pick the part you think I am wrong about or back it up.

David

Still disagree - try setting up a 1080 sequence - then drag a p or m proxy to the timeline and if you select yes it will go red and if no will still orange. Don't take my word for it... try it !!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Strange.

Editing on post-encrypted M footy all january (don't really know why, but that's another and more philosophical question. I do prefer prores proxies by a longshot... I just thought I was in for a quick edit of an already conformed project... That's all.

Instead I went into serious re-edit mode...)

Have used several different computers (Leopard/Snow leopard/MacPro/MacBookPro) and it has worked with the latest FCP plugin and 7.03 without any issues I didn't have the early days. These are 2:1 files, though.


that said, I wouldn't even consider doing longform from the cam-proxies...

One thing you could consider (and I did after moving the media) is to re-create the proxies. That sped things up significantly... (almost forgot I went through that...)

Anyhow, for longform, camproxies are an absolute no-go for an almost infinite number of reasons...
Someday you'll hate yourself for deciding on doing that!