FIlm professionals petition seeks to bring back old Final Cut Pro

[Subhadip Sen]

FCP X has a lot of potential. It certainly does. As does Adobe CS6. As does Vegas Pro 11. It's great to be hopeful and optimistic, but let's wait for a moment and think about our work TODAY. For starters, can we edit R3D natively in FCP X? No. So we will use a software that can. On a very objective level, FCP X is clearly not the best solution for R3D work and there's no rational justification for using it in a R3D workflow, today. When or if FCP X does achieve feature parity - for essential features - to competing software, I am sure we will all give it a second look. 5 weeks after release it is still useless for most of our work.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Uhhhh.... that wasn't my intent. I was trying to show that even otherwise great companies sometimes misstep. I wasn't trying to "prove" that it was a mistake. I think that's already shown itself to be the case by the reaction it got from the professional community that it purported to serve. It was really the rather raptuous fanboy reaction that I was decrying, the attitude that because it's Apple, they can do no wrong, and if you think they have done something wrong, it's your problem because you're not as smart as they are in any area. Whatever one may think of taking a long term view, in the short term the introduction of this product really severed a lot of the good will that this industry had towards Apple as a software supplier. They might indeed recover some or all of that over time, but for now it's been seriously damaged.

So I guess one can dismiss Michael Cioni as just another "fanboy" with no real world post production experience? :willy_nilly:

While you, Mr. Most, certainly have more credibility in the professional post world than I do, I think perhaps Mr. Cioni would give you a run for your money. Not saying you have to agree with him, I just thought it appropriate to show more respect than dismissing all those who see the great potential for FCP-X as mindless fanboys. You accuse those who have anything good to say about FCP-X as lemming-like "fanboys." Yet, you defend your own perspective as objectively accurate because what, you have a lot of people who apparently agree with you? That doesn't make yours the only valid opinion. And with all those who got in line about how FCP-X is not for professionals: who are the lemmings? The minority opinion is usually the tougher one to defend. That doesn't always make it wrong (or right); just worthy of consideration. You can make the argument that you are right and I am wrong because YOU are the Hollywood post production professional and I am not; for you, end of story. But to dismiss MC as just another misguided individual with no real perspective? What can I say?
:mad2:

I, for one, am delighted that a very smart, capable and forward-thinking Hollywood post production professional was willing to share his very positive observations about the new editing paradigm introduced by FCP-X. To be clear, I am not dissing you because of your opinion about FCP-X, but I am dissing you for dismissing the opinion of others as unworthy, even when those opinions are every bit as qualified as your own. I can see why Michael has chosen not to jump into this fray as there is clearly no changing of minds to be done. And, I don't wish to draw him into it by invoking his POV. In fact, I had bowed out of this discussion some time ago as being pretty hopeless. I think I'll retreat to that posture again.

:seeya:

Here's to the future. Let it begin sooner rather than later! :cheers2: :thumbsup:

 

[Ben Rojas]

The ramifications of what Apple's done run deep, but sign a petition demanding they bring back the old final cut, wtf??? I find it funny; sorry, but I do. Crap happens and life goes on, period. Mac's were pretty crappy in the late 90's so Avid focused more on PC, cool, no prob, many adapted. Avid got to big for it's bridges and quit listening to us, so many switched to FCP. Again, no biggie, we adapted. SGI went belly up and Autodesk went Linux (and not to long ago Mac) and we adapted. In our profession, and I could just as well be talking cameras, technology changes and we adapt. How a company chooses to implement that change is their prerogative... as is it my biz how I deal w/the change. In this case, for whatever reason, and I agree w/Michael Cioni that we are not insiders and only know our side, Apple has done something radical. Like other professionals, I too am affected; but sign a petition to bring back an old product we've all had numerous complaints about for years, no thanks! I would have certainly welcomed a real update fixing many of FCP7's issues, but again, crap happens. For now, I'll stay put. FCP7 will continue to serve me well as a offline tool. If FCP-X eventually come arounds before I've moved on, great. If it doesn't and Apple's content with it's business decision, which we have to agree was an awesome biz move that will bank them big coin, so be it. We move on, we adapt, we bite the bullet and tweak our workflows - like many of us have done time and time again. I've already installed DaVinci Resolve lite to replace Color. Motion never replaced AE for me, it just complemented my arsenal, so no biggie there. And old faithful, Avid MC - is now cheaper than ever! Time is precious and wasting it petitioning Apple to bring back and support old technology is :laugh:

 

[Santiago Marti]

Terry, please, why do you need people to love FCPX? Use it all you want! Chill out, show Mr Most some respect, he is here to help a lot of people with his knowledge, he is not a fanboy nor a fanatic, he is being objective.

It is fun to hear Michael Cioni, but i don't think he is using FCPX at all right now, and we really don't know if he will ever use it, because we don't know the future of FCPX. As of right now, it is useless for a lot of workflows. Here, we discuss mostly .r3d related workflows, FCPX doesn't even handles .red natively.

Please keep it down and don't turn reduser into a lower quality forum, thanks.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Terry, please, why do you need people to love FCPX? Use it all you want! Chill out, show Mr Most some respect, he is here to help a lot of people with his knowledge, he is not a fanboy nor a fanatic, he is being objective.

It is fun to hear Michael Cioni, but i don't think he is using FCPX at all right now, and we really don't know if he will ever use it, because we don't know the future of FCPX. As of right now, it is useless for a lot of workflows. Here, we discuss mostly .r3d related workflows, FCPX doesn't even handles .red natively.

Please keep it down and don't turn reduser into a lower quality forum, thanks.

Mr. Marti, as I indicated in my previous post, I do respect Michael Most's opinions about FCP-X and I certainly don't expect to change his mind based on my comments and beliefs. And, I could care less whether he agree with me on anything at all. But, I also ask that he show the same level of respect to others, on a simple human level, that he expects for himself. In my mind, respect doesn't include dismissive name calling when someone articulates their own beliefs and advances their own opinions and observations about a subject. And if he doesn't accept my own opinion as valid, surely he understands that Michale Cioni is a highly respected post production professional and, I would suggest, he need take no back seat to Mr. Most when it comes to advancing his professional opinions. This "fan-boy" label used to undercut the validity of a well conceived and articulated opinion, just because it disagrees with one's own, is disingenuous and, to use a specific term, unprofessional.

I think it somewhat humorous that you have decided that you are the arbiter of objectivity in this matter. Surely you see the irony in that declaration, no? You and I can certainly choose which "expert" we believe more, and we don't have to agree, but your calll for me to be quiet and accept your "objectivity" and implicitly accept Mr. Most's rude dismissal, is, shall we say, something less than humble on your part. :coolgleamA:

 

[Santiago Marti]

I never said i was humble!

I choose my tools according to my needs, yes, i read what other professionals say, but i like to experiment and try everything at hand.

This pattern is repeatting itself in some forums, and you can see the same names advocating for apple with a fanboyism beyond belief. Making predictions, talking about stocks, money, etc.

I still remember people saying: wait for the next FCP, it will blow us away! Well, it didn't happen, or maybe it did. It blew away lots of FCP users to other software.

Michael Cioni is a pro, MMost is a pro, and a lot of people here are pros. every opinion is valid. Reality is also valid. FCPX could be the future, i don't see it, and that's my opinion. If Michael thinks it is, good for him.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

Michael Cioni is a pro, MMost is a pro, and a lot of people here are pros. every opinion is valid. Reality is also valid. FCPX could be the future, i don't see it, and that's my opinion. If Michael thinks it is, good for him.

If this particular comment, above, was typical of the discourse about the subject, the whole discussion would be both more pleasant and more enlightening.

 

[M Most]

So I guess one can dismiss Michael Cioni as just another "fanboy" with no real world post production experience? :willy_nilly:

While you, Mr. Most, certainly have more credibility in the professional post world than I do, I think perhaps Mr. Cioni would give you a run for your money. Not saying you have to agree with him, I just thought it appropriate to show more respect than dismissing all those who see the great potential for FCP-X as mindless fanboys

(sigh..............)

Geez, you can't say ANYTHING here any more without someone wanting to rip your head off.

I didn't "accuse" Michael of anything. In fact, I didn't even mention his name in my post and I didn't for a reason. There has been a lot of reaction to Apple's product from a lot of people other than Michael Cioni and me. This thread is not about him, and it's not about me. It is, in fact, about a petition that I've never even read that wants Apple to bring back a product they've EOL'd, something that's not very likely given Apple's history. The fanboy reaction I mentioned has been demonstrated by many here and elsewhere so I would have thought that anyone reading what I wrote would realize that I was referring to that group. Apparently that's not the case.

I happen to know Cioni and he knows me. And we agree on some things and disagree on others. He is involved in some segments of the industry that I am not heavily involved in, and I work in segments of the industry he has little contact with, hence the source of some of the things we disagree on. Everyone forms opinions based on their own perspective, and different industry segments sometimes have very different needs and working methods. That's one of the reasons that in so called "high end" production, Red is considerably stronger in features than they are in television. I do respect him and what he has to say, and I would venture to say that feeling is mutual, regardless of how it might sometimes appear.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

If Michael Cioni is saying... keep FCPX around for editing the baby footage... because it can't do anything else currently... then I agree with him. I think that's what he's saying. If he's saying keep an eye out for FCPX it will be cooler in two or three years... then I agree with him. It is obvious that he's not saying that FCPX is currently ready for prime time. Which means that it's not pro... Perhaps it can be... Perhaps it will be... but certainly and presently it's not.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

If Michael Cioni is saying... keep FCPX around for editing the baby footage... because it can't do anything else currently... then I agree with him. I think that's what he's saying. If he's saying keep an eye out for FCPX it will be cooler in two or three years... then I agree with him. It is obvious that he's not saying that FCPX is currently ready for prime time. Which means that it's not pro... Perhaps it can be... Perhaps it will be... but currently it's not.

Yes, I think he suggests that it will be a powerful solution in the future. But Adobe, SCS and Avid aren't sitting still, are they? It was an entertaining podcast, but I am not convinced. Much of the features demonstrated have been available in Vegas Pro for several years! That said, I am delighted FCP X has adopted them - even Premiere Pro CS5.5 lacks some of Vegas Pro's features. Especially things like previewing a project without opening, editing during playback and magnetic timelines - these are just not possible on Premiere Pro and believe me, they are very useful features. I just have a problem with them being branded as anything new and revolutionary - they are not. I am also disappointed that it can't playback 2K content @ 24 fps on a Macbook Pro 15. That's a serious lack of horsepower, if anything. Especially when you can edit R3D 4K natively (Good Quarter IQ) on a laptop 1/3rd the price of a Macbook Pro 15 with Vegas Pro 10.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

What I know is , I see a lot of pros saying FCPX is not a good tool and is not for them and some pros saying that is a good tool but not for them either.
And mr Verhaar, I really don't think you should be bashing Mr Most like this, for me it's a privelege to be able to interact with guys like him, david mullen, Mr Cioni and others.
Reduser is just too awesome and nowadays I see a lot of new faces (please, not you, obviously) who have no respect of any kind for guys who are in a place most of us only dream of, that don't need to be here, don't need to help anyone, and yet, they do !
And this pisses me off !

 

[Andrae Palmer]

For sure FCPX got a lot of gimmicky non practicable features such as background rendering that doesn't really background render. What I hate is that tracking which was present in Apple Color is now gone. Garbage Mattes now are only four points and are not trackable. The keyer got much better though. The speed improvements are awesome... but what's the good of that if you are handicapped in so many other areas? What's the point of merging Apple Color into FCPX without the support of video capture cards for color grade monitoring? It's all about the workflow and these guys went berserk on us and did iMovie on steroids.

 

[M Most]

I... So I got a BA in an EOL software and still am paying it off ...I wonder what my former professors are going to do now? Why not just teach on Imovie or Windows movie maker if FCPX is the future?

I may be a bit out of line in suggesting this, but if all the school and/or the professors were teaching you was how to use specific software and not the art and theory of editing and storytelling, it wasn't a particularly well grounded program in the first place. If, on the other hand, they were teaching you how to edit and craft a story and only happened to be using Final Cut at the time, then your anger is a bit misplaced. All of these programs (Final Cut 7, Avid, Premiere Pro) use concepts that are similar enough that if you have a solid foundation as an editor, you can use any one of them with a few days practice. It's really not that big a deal.

Just a thought. Please don't take it personally.

 

[David Battistella]

This thread has the same tone as many CML threads from about 4 years ago when the RED ONE came out. Lots of angry folks. Bashing is getting tired. The software is like a month old. Remember when the RED ONE was a month old. A lot of people were shitting all over it. Now, they are shooting with it. Interesting. Hating solves FUCK ALL.

And Mike is correct. If your teacher taught you software instead of craft, the teaching is flawwed, not the software company who makes software to sell to the most amount of people.

David

 

[Santiago Marti]

This thread has the same tone as many CML threads from about 4 years ago when the RED ONE came out. Lots of angry folks. Bashing is getting tired. The software is like a month old. Remember when the RED ONE was a month old. A lot of people were shitting all over it. Now, they are shooting with it. Interesting. Hating solves FUCK ALL.

And Mike is correct. If your teacher taught you software instead of craft, the teaching is flawwed, not the software company who makes software to sell to the most amount of people.

David

No, FCPX has nothing to do with the RED ONE, that argument is nonesense. RED was a new company developing a new camera for professional work and feature films. It was really a revolution. FCPX is another thing for a different market, i don't see Steven Soderbergh or Peter Jackson editing their next films on FCPX, in fact, i don't see anybody using FCPX right now.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

This thread has the same tone as many CML threads from about 4 years ago when the RED ONE came out. Lots of angry folks. Bashing is getting tired. The software is like a month old. Remember when the RED ONE was a month old. A lot of people were shitting all over it. Now, they are shooting with it. Interesting. Hating solves FUCK ALL.

And Mike is correct. If your teacher taught you software instead of craft, the teaching is flawwed, not the software company who makes software to sell to the most amount of people.

David

Your analogies are grossly misplaced. If FCPX was a RED... I'd be the first one wanting to use it. That's why i purchased a RED One and ordered two Epics... that's why I purchased a Mac Pro in 03 was for Final Cut Pro. You think anyone would purchase a Mac just for FCPX now? I would purchase the iPad 3 for it though. It's a gimmick.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I may be a bit out of line in suggesting this, but if all the school and/or the professors were teaching you was how to use specific software and not the art and theory of editing and storytelling, it wasn't a particularly well grounded program in the first place. If, on the other hand, they were teaching you how to edit and craft a story and only happened to be using Final Cut at the time, then your anger is a bit misplaced. All of these programs (Final Cut 7, Avid, Premiere Pro) use concepts that are similar enough that if you have a solid foundation as an editor, you can use any one of them with a few days practice. It's really not that big a deal.

Just a thought. Please don't take it personally.

Yes your entirely right about that, no offense taken at all, but lets face facts here cross fades, jump cuts, key frames, story boards, etc aren't rocket science to begin with and on larger productions I don't actually have to create the story myself usually, just cut here and there as told, time code, shot types, etc, the producer/client is always right, no matter what I disagree on... Consequently I loved the school program and have no blame for the school, and even still talk to the professors when possible. I am however royally annoyed that Apple fixed something that wasn't broken and dumbed it down when they were already super successful customer rating wise and did in fact have Imovie and FCP express to suit that market already of prosumers. I knew the ins and outs of the interface like the back of my hand, tutored people quickly without needing to go to a book or help menu, did the school news, got inducted into Lambda Pi Eta. I loved every single moment there and would stay in the studio rather then chase tail (bad choice in retrospect), but I am somewhat annoyed that I now need to get the same level of comfort with Imovie Pro, CS5, or Avid, asap when it took several years of working on FCP to reach that level of comfort and quickness. FCP was not my first NLE and won't be my last, but I knew her like she was my right hand. I bought the other suites never thinking I would suddenly need to switch to using them as my primary NLE, but as a side thing to learn on my own during free time in case I end up working on a non FCP7 based production. To have Apple change the UI on me when all I really wanted was the same UI as 64 bit without gamma issues and ideally native support is kind of a shock, and at the preview before it was released I was already starting to worry. I told myself "it would never happen, that Apple loved me and all the fanboys"...woe is me lol...

I can and do use both CS5 and Avid but there is a huge difference between knowing every single button like the back of my hand, and trying to figure it out bumbling along in front of clients and needing to go to tutorials. I picked them up easily enough, but I used FCP for enough years that things became second nature to me and I am really quick with it and am told that on jobs for instance, knowing how to get things done fast was my best asset. I know one day I can feel the same way about Avid or CS5, but it took years of consistently working on FCP to reach the kind of comfort I felt on that application. Clients would be telling me changes by phone and I could fix it as fast as they could speak it! I didn't even need to take notes! Its like Apple stole my girlfriend... I am just pretty bummed out on the ordeal...

But as others have said the application is out and nothing is changing, I am just wasting my breathe living in the 32 bit past... Oh Apple I will always love you and cherish our time together...

I can use the other aps but to really have that same level of comfort is something that will take me time. Maybe I am just a slow learner who knows :w00t:

 

[Marc Wielage]

I knew the ins and outs of the interface like the back of my hand, tutored people quickly without needing to go to a book or help menu, did the school news, got inducted into Lambda Pi Eta. I loved every single moment there and would stay in the studio rather then chase tail (bad choice in retrospect), but I am somewhat annoyed that I now need to get the same level of comfort with Imovie Pro, CS5, or Avid, asap when it took several years of working on FCP to reach that level of comfort and quickness.

If you're more comfortable with FCP7, stick with that. Nobody's forcing you to change right this second. I bet there will still be people using FCP7 two years from now, and as long as they don't change the OS too far, it'll probably still work fine (albeit in 32-bit).

If you feel like changing to Avid or Premiere, I'd say take a basic weekend class, learn all the basics, then sit down with the manual for a couple of weeks and go through every page. After about 100 hours, you'll have enough down that you can do 90% of the standard stuff, even with a client in the room.

As Mr. Most says above: the hard part is the gut instinct about knowing when to cut, and when not to. The interface is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. And as Michael Cioni says elsewhere, we haven't seen the final version of FCPX yet. Once they add in all the major stuff that's missing, it's possible that the new program's positives (particularly the speed) will overcome the negatives (like the interface changes).

 

[David Battistella]

Your analogies are grossly misplaced. If FCPX was a RED... I'd be the first one wanting to use it. That's why i purchased a RED One and ordered two Epics... that's why I purchased a Mac Pro in 03 was for Final Cut Pro. You think anyone would purchase a Mac just for FCPX now? I would purchase the iPad 3 for it though. It's a gimmick.

Semantics.

 

[David Battistella]

No, FCPX has nothing to do with the RED ONE, that argument is nonesense. RED was a new company developing a new camera for professional work and feature films. It was really a revolution. FCPX is another thing for a different market, i don't see Steven Soderbergh or Peter Jackson editing their next films on FCPX, in fact, i don't see anybody using FCPX right now.

Semantics.

If you can not see the paralells on many different levels, I'm not going to sit here and argue abour semantics.

David