FEW things to consider for RED team

[martin.kryjom]

HI everyone.
For long time I read cearefully every post on this forum, i learn a lot about the RED camera in good and bad meaning. I would like to say one thing for RED team and for others on this forum. I do not want to be agresive and i hope u will get my point.

Every time when something is wrong with camera or acessories i read a lot of replay that it is like that as the camera is cheaper then ARRI, GENESSIS OR F23. My point is that THERE are some custmers like me, that did not choose RED for the price. I have spent 110 k for new cooke lenses, around 40-50 k for post production stuff, grip acessories and so on. I choose the RED as it was presented as ONLY ONE 4k camera on the market with 4k resolution ( what is actually truth as we can not buy DALSA) I also get informed about very similar to film DR and many other things. Personally i do not care about price , i have choosen RED as it seams to be the best option for me. Now , after CHE and a lot of discussions about DR, IR blocking, postworkflow i'm a lit bit consider that it wont be easy to push directors of photography to use RED.
Conclusion:
READ team did good job, but please remember about customers like me that have choosen this camera for high end projects , and do not care how much we will pay for camera as if is good it will pay us back anyway. WE have many concerns now and i would like to get good answer to few major questions:
1) what is REAL DR of RED based on U field tests ( not done by others, done by U, RED team)

2) Are u gonna improve IR blocking ( i have IR filters form TIFFEN but it should be improve in sensor side anyway)

Please stop marketing in this point and tell me as it is...
I have ordered my RED and i'm waiting so i can not do any test myself.

Best regards
MARTIN

 

[Uli Plank]

If you wanted the highest DR currently available in an electronic camera independent of the price, you should have ordered the F23. That said, the DR of Red is very acceptable for me, and I come from a film background. Get a Canon D-SLR ( I had one for quite some time before ordering my Red) and play with it's RAW images, and you'll get something very close to what a Red will do for you. This is definitely no video-cam as we know it!
Regarding IR: This issue only shows up under certain circumstances (pretty high ND) and it's not easily fixed inside the cam. You can't produce a filter going in next to the sensor that will be completely independent from the lens you use in front of it (wide-angles in particular). So, I appreciate that Red stayed conservative here not to compromise quality and leaves it up to us when needed. Every professional is using a matte box and will have his/her set of graded NDs, Polarizers and the like – why not add a good ND+IR filter? If money is no concern, the Panchros seem to be a good choice.
BTW, I sat in full sun yesterday with my expensive (and very neutral) Rodenstock sunglasses (after all, my eyes are my most important tool next to my brain). When looking at a friend with his black nylon backpack on, I suddenly noticed a massive purple tint on that, but not on his black t-shirt. When I took the glasses off, both were pitch black.
I'm pretty sure that I can't see IR, so there must be strange things going on with black nylon, once you start looking for it…

Regards,

Uli

 

[Matt Uhry]

The Camera is great and I believe it will become a standard for certain types of projects, it will rule mid budget commercials, music video's and medium budget films. It will be put to use at some degree in all levels of the industry.

The IR issues and Dynamic Range issues can be worked around.

IR: In Reality you have to provoke this by using heavy ND. But we do that sometimes so it's good to know what it is and how to deal with it. Hot Mirror filters do a great job of killing IR pollution.

Dynamic Range: All about Lighting, and finding an exposure that makes a good balance between preserving highlights and the noise floor in the dark areas. Something DP's deal with all the time in any format. The Red is average amongst high end HD camera's in this respect, and poised to become a bit better with Build 16.

Post Workflow: I'm not an expert in this dept, but I've seen numerous projects that I've shot finished that seem to have gone well. Getting better all the time. Editors and Post houses generally don't like to be dictated to about what tools to use so I hope Red strives to keep this open and universal.

So basically: no worries. If you don't want your camera I'm thinking about buying another...

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[martin.kryjom]

HI
Thanks for reply.I agree that for DR it is a matter of lighting the scene. In very contrasty one we will have a problems with cliped highlights even on film. The truth is that in such a scenees we always wlill have to choose details in shadows or in highlights. Is just 35mm way and i agree with that.
Why i did not choose F23- 1 reason, resolution. 35 mm as we all know is close to 4k, u can see the difference or not, depends, but if u choose camrera based on tech spec, normal choice is for 4k. Especcially that In tech sepc RED DR looks impresive.
About IR filters, i just ordered Tiffen new product ( NDIR and HM set of filters) and I hope it will work. I gonna post some results as Q as i will have my camera.

I still bilive in RED and i know is gonna be a standard in some projects in some time.
However I just would like to point that not all customers have choosen RED becouse of the price.
That are some guys like me and i'm sure many others that made this choice for the picture quality not for relation price/picture quality...

I hope that everyone has understood my point
Please RED team do change some things even if we will have to pay for that some extra monay. I'm sure we will be more happy with camera a lit bit more expensive but with less "inssues"

best regards to all red users, i'm waiting for mine, we will see how it will works.

 

[donatello b]

i assume that when one puts out those kind of $$ ( cookes) one wants a return on their $$ (as in cash flow?)
IMO Red is perfect for you because of the price ...
you've already spent $$ on cooke , grip , post ...
now for a 30k value you can get a 4k camera that can work as A camera on projects Matt U has pointed out plus it can be used as C/D camera on projects where they decided to go with a higher end camera/film .. also Red would be ideal for crash cam on projects ...
having a RED could increase your cash flow or forget buying one & you can Rent from many of us and we'll take the cash flow !

if price isn't why you bought Red then just rent a Dalsa for your projects as it seems to have excellent DR and workflow ( using Dalsa workflow) ... but i think the price & image is why 1000's are being bought and it's a bit of a trade off ( reasons you list ) when you compare the Red to 150-350k camera's ...

i think bottom line is it all comes down to the type of projects you are hired to do ... if you work hi-end then forget buying a camera, use the best camera for each project & make $$ renting your cookes ... if you are in med to low then this is where the RED currently is a excellent value for clients ...

 

[M Most]

Please RED team do change some things even if we will have to pay for that some extra monay. I'm sure we will be more happy with camera a lit bit more expensive but with less "inssues"

You are aware of the Epic project, aren't you? It's over a year away, but basically Red is already trying to do what you're asking.

 

[martin.kryjom]

yes.
I think EPIC will be what o thought RED is. I will buy EPIC for sure, but i thing i will stay with RED ONE also for lower projects.

 

[Finner]

IMO the design and ergonomics of Epic is poor at best and even worse then red. The shape and design of red make it difficult for handheld work and having the controls and information LCD screen on the back is terrible. I was suprised at NAB when I saw the Epic was actually a step back in design from the red. The balance and centre of gravity of the Epic is worse, its hand held ability will be a beast and all the controls are still on the back when they clearly need to be on the assistants smart side of the camera.

I am amazed with what Jim and team have done with the red and am a customer so I hope all the complaints I mention above can be taken as constructive critisism. My hope is that before the Epic comes out it goes under a major design change because as it stands right now the functional design of the epic is a let down. Still lots of time for that to change though.

 

[Brandon Fraley]

yes, there indeed have to be limitations when you insist on the final camera only costing 17.5k. What they've been able to do is extraordinary, but not perfect (although far exceeds my needs Thanks RED team!)

I'd buy a RED ONE, play with, and since money isn't an issue for you, trade it in for an EPIC when they're released next year. It should probably out perform anything out there, at a fraction of the price.

 

[Jonas Nyström]

Martin

If not quality is compared to how much you have o pay for it, in the forums discussions, tell me what we shall talk about. How to make the best camera, no limit? For me and about 98% of rest, money is an issue. And the core of RED is to build affordable great digital cinema cameras. You should absolutely have straight and good answers to your questions (and I'm aware of the fanboy bias ;-) - but I don't understand the point in your statement about the money.

 

[martin.kryjom]

The point is that there are som epeople that do not look at the camera from the price point of view , ust from quality of picture.
I never care how much RED cost. Actually i find out that is so cheap after i have read the tech spec and look around for smaples of picture. I also looked at the JUMPER ( i was sure that is made on RED< but is actually not .But is in the section of shoot on RED")
Why i have choosen RED. Very simple
1) Size of sensor - 35 mm DOF
2) resolution - only one camera u CAN buy , Gennesis and Dalsa are only for RENT
3) DR

F23 has smaller reslution and smaller size of sensor so i can not get 35 mm DOF, other thing is that is "only" HD, even no 2k. I think is great fo TV, and to do some single shots , but i find out laready that for DI is a lit bit too low ( for me, i see the difference, some people do not care)

What i would like to say that the main reason why i have taken RED is technical spec and picture samples. But then i have realized after read this forum, look at the realized movies that many thinks actually are not as they have been listed and many people try to make an excuse that it is like that becouse of price. I just want to say that i'm representing customers that are ready to pay much more money to get the camera what will do better then RED one and the price is not only the factor.
I know that RED is great , but i'm not sure anymore if is great for cinema, and i was looking for digital cinema camera.
Anyway, i hope that RED will do the Job righ, will need less marketing and we will see more movies in the cinema what will be a proof of that that the camera is DIGITAL CINEMA CAMERA.
I still will stay with RED but i also have to look at Sony F35 . If i will buy EPIC or F35 we will see in a year , when both will be available.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

IMO the design and ergonomics of Epic is poor at best and even worse then red. The shape and design of red make it difficult for handheld work and having the controls and information LCD screen on the back is terrible. I was suprised at NAB when I saw the Epic was actually a step back in design from the red. The balance and centre of gravity of the Epic is worse, its hand held ability will be a beast and all the controls are still on the back when they clearly need to be on the assistants smart side of the camera.

The squarer shape of the EPIC suggests that either the batteries and drives should go directly on the back for counterbalance and thus the LCD menus and controls should go on the sides, or the camera should be stretched longer but shorter, but the add-ons should go on top.

I've wondered if these new digital cameras should be "bendable", have a joint in the middle to make it long or L-shaped (rear half up or down), or inbetween, for different shooting conditions. Too silly?

 

[M Most]

I've wondered if these new digital cameras should be "bendable", have a joint in the middle to make it long or L-shaped (rear half up or down), or inbetween, for different shooting conditions. Too silly?

I don't think it's silly at all, I think it's clever and potentially innovative. Film camera design has permitted mag placement on either the top or the back of the camera movement for some time, and it's proven to be very practical and useful. An electronic camera has an inherent advantage in that there does not need to be a direct mechanical link between modules, as there does in a mechanically driven design such as a film camera. In theory, the case could be any shape, and with multiple sections that are only connected electronically. This capability has been utilized already by such designs as the SI Mini, the Sony X300, and the Iconix RH-1F, but in all of those cases, it has been used to allow for a very small and portable imaging head to be remotely connected to a larger control unit. What you're suggesting could provide for user-configurable case configurations ("longer" vs. "taller") that go beyond what Red was trying to achieve with its current industrial design, and perhaps in a more cohesive way.

If I were Red, I would take such suggestions seriously.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Another option as well is to make the sensor block removable, like the SI-2K, or the T-block design of the F950's, though that's an add-on, not a detachable section.

But imagine a modular camera -- the first third is the sensor block area and is detachable for dashboard shots, etc. , the rear two-thirds is bendable. But of course, one problem will be that these designs will make it a lot easier for dust and dirt to get into the camera...

 

[Jason Sinclair]

IMO the design and ergonomics of Epic is poor at best and even worse then red. The shape and design of red make it difficult for handheld work and having the controls and information LCD screen on the back is terrible. I was suprised at NAB when I saw the Epic was actually a step back in design from the red. The balance and centre of gravity of the Epic is worse, its hand held ability will be a beast and all the controls are still on the back when they clearly need to be on the assistants smart side of the camera.

I am amazed with what Jim and team have done with the red and am a customer so I hope all the complaints I mention above can be taken as constructive critisism. My hope is that before the Epic comes out it goes under a major design change because as it stands right now the functional design of the epic is a let down. Still lots of time for that to change though.

I disagree. The camera is a forward thinking camera. As far as i can see there are two ways forward, conform to an outdated system that was born from clunky machinery or recreate the technology from the ground up that allows for current manufacturing standards. The idea that the whole process be redesigned is revolutionary. Of course for a lot in the industry this is a hard change to make, especially if they can't adapt.
Like mini xlr's etc... revolutionary but yet so simple. The way epic is designed is almost perfect because the distribution of the camera is in controllable proportions especially if weight is evenly distributed. This means a more definite centre of balance and therefore much easier to control dynamic balance. The problem is with the accessories. You can't use outdated methods designed for heavier cameras with things sticking out everywhere like film cameras. The more square the camera is, the more you will have a camera that can be controlled in a number of situations, like crane work, cars, etc etc.. With hand held, the whole process needs a redesign. but in the end you have a quicker more adaptable unit the way it is designed. I would prefer it was flatter and more evenly square personally.
I think the current hand held setups are way off the mark .

 

[10s]

I've too have been cheering for modular design for a long time because it makes the most out of standardization and user configuration. This sounds silly but, LEGO, the toys, are a great design concept that could and should be used as a basis for basic design. It allows plug in modularity that adapts to unique user needs. I used this concept on commercial airline interior design, etc. It also achieves economy of scale using 80/20 Pareto analysis of end user configuration needs when deciding on your design offerings.

I see the main block (mothership) would house sensor w/ mount, all other units are detachable (plug & play) for, CPU, transport controls, power systems, audio, video monitor, etc. All units are sealed for dust, water with cables connected to a central switchboad unit. Any unit needing servicing can be disconnected and replaced without costly repair processes that cause undue wear & tear. Any unit could be updated with new unit module replacement. The units would be physically attached to the mothership and skins (like a cell phone skin) could be made for most the common configurations to provide smooth ergonomic design & appearance ..... enough of that!

 

[Finner]

I disagree. The camera is a forward thinking camera.

Ya, your right. I can't believe no one came up with the square box design sooner. Forward thinking at it's best!

Camera information at the back of the camera where the operator is in the way and the AC has difficulty getting at it. Audio and video ports that stick out at 90 degree's to the dumb side risking being sheered off and adding bulk and size. PL mount throwing balance off by sitting high and far from front of body. No shoulder curve in body to help balance and aid in smooth camera movements. All the weight of the camera sitting on the front.

Yep the box, function and design at it's best.

 

[Matt Uhry]

Ya, your right. I can't believe no one came up with the square box design sooner. Forward thinking at it's best!

Finner, did you check that for termites before you bought it? Actually when I first saw the Epic I thought "My God, they've brought back the Arri III". Chiropractors of the world: Rejoice!.

I hope that was just something for the show and the real thing is going to be more like an Arri 235 or an Aaton. Shoulder cut out, low center of gravity, intrinsically balanced. More of a Lotus Elise, than a Smart Car.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Finner]

Finner, did you check that for termites before you bought it?www.mattuhry.com

I'm safe on termites up here. Those damn beavers are a whole nother deal though.

By the way I heard there is a cutting edge square gun sight style view finder in development to slap on top of the camera. Will the innovation ever stop?

 

[Rocco Schult]

The point is that there are som epeople that do not look at the camera from the price point of view , ust from quality of picture.
...

I read the eye is more sensitive for resolution through contrast than physical resolution...