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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Few Questions Before Our Shoot

Jon Schellenger

Jon Schellenger

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Hey everyone,

We are heading out this Friday to shoot the indie film, "Seaviper". We will be shooting on board a WWII Submarine in drydock located in Mobile.

Here are some really dumb questions, but what the heck, I am going to ask anyway. I am used to shooting on the JVC and other cameras, so even though I have very limited experience with the RED, I think I have the basic settings down. However, there are some things I still am questioning because most of the stuff I do is created for TV delivery.

So here are the settings I am planning on using. Let me know what you guys think, and if I am totally off....

1. 4K, 2.1 (not 4K ANA?), 48th shutter (for the most part), 36 Redcode, quicktime proxies on, and the big question... 23.98 and not 24? 320 ASA- (I know the status on this, and I realize that we do not want to clip highlights. I know we can dig deep into the shadows if we need to. So I will watch the highlights. We are hoping to be using Cooke series primes, but will not know until the end of the week.

Overall, I know we want this to look killer on television, but there is a chance that this may actually get projected. If way down the road we decide to do a film-out, should I use 24 instead? What setting for a theatrical release are most of you setting your guides at?

Guys- help me... Is there anything else I am missing?
 
sounds good. not sure how much light you will have inside the sub...

but ya. to keep things at 1/48th we had to use some NDs

we shot in 24.... as it's easier to go to PAL 25fps... and be edited on a native 24 timeline...

mike
 
Mike and everyone....

Tell me - this 23.98 vs 24 really has me freaked out. I would normally do everything at 23.98 due to most of our stuff being delivered on TV. The dropped frame, vs non-drop frame always freaks me out. Can't tell you why, but it does. Probably because I don't have a total grip on it yet.

So what do you think- if I know for certain it will go on DVD and be played on TV and perhaps broadcasted, but there is always the chance that it could actually go through a film out.. or maybe projected on a digital projector, should I go straight 24?

As far as light goes, yes, we will most likely use the practicals already in the sub. Very little added light because of compartment sizes. Just a touch of fill. We may even use some Rosco light pads here and there, but that depends on what we decide once we get there.

I do want a good clean image to start with so the 320 ASA will be a good thing to shoot for- I am sure I will end up getting a little noise once I do color correction and pull up the mids a bit.

And you do agree 4K 2.1 and not (ana) right?
 
I'm sure you know all of this, but this is what I do:

  1. Shoot 24fps for delivery to 1080p, plus the conversion to PAL / NTSC is cleaner than for 23.98. (But, shoot higher frame rates for Green Screen for sharper edges).
  2. Shoot 4K 2.1.
    4K anamorphic (16:9) proxies do not work at present, so editing is a pain as you have to transcode all the 4K 16:9 files before you can edit.
  3. Keep the ASA pretty close to 320, most other changes can be done in post (REDCINE)
  4. If you plan on using Crimson to conform from FCP keep your takes short (i.e no 10min+ camera runs... think like a 35mm filmmaker.)

Workflow:
  • Immediately after finishing your project, make a back up of your r3d's.
  • Run the M_ proxy files through compressor and output ProRes files, or output wav sound files.

    Do this because, if you loose the camera generated proxies (accidentally overwrite them using Red Alert proxies etc.) there is currently no good way to get back all 4 channels of audio from the r3d files (Redalert & REDCINE do not output audio at the moment).
  • For FCP work flow use the ProRes's or proxies to offline edit. Then use Crimson to conform and output using REDCINE.
    http://www.crimsonworkflow.com/home.htm
  • Always use REDCINE reset to open REDCINE.
    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpos...52&postcount=3
 
Dedo 150 lights sound ideal here if the practicals aren't enough. Good luck and happy shooting. :)
 
Ed, Mike, & Jason,

Thanks guys..

Ed, I will set the project at 4K 2.1 for sure.. A straight 24 sounds good as well. Are most guys using that and then allowing the editor to do the pull down? Would you say that is my safest bet for all possible deliveries down the road? IE 1080P, Standard Def DVD, Blue Ray, Film Out, and straight 2k/4k projection?

Fantastic idea on the Proxies. I love that idea, and I will set the DIT up with a complete suite to do just that.

Jason, we have looked into the Dedo lights as well. This is something we may do a last minute order on. I just need to get there and spend some time on the set to see what will work best.

Should be one hell of a mission!
 
Hi ED. I have some questions.

When shooting with Panasonic and Sony HDCam we shot at 23.98 or output to NTSC SD as per their directions. I also shot Panasonic Varicam at 29.98 for output to NTSC which I felt looked nicer. Can you give some more detail as to why use straight 24fps?

"4K anamorphic (16:9) proxies do not work at present, so editing is a pain as you have to transcode all the 4K 16:9 files before you can edit." So at 2/1 the camera does make the quicktime proxys in build 15 but not in 16/9?

3. Keep the ASA pretty close to 320, most other changes can be done in post (REDCINE) When we change the EI in the camera the viewfinder becomes brighter but when playing back the viewfinder is the same unless we increase the EI of the playback. This seems to indicate to me and my asst. that the camera is always actually recording in EI320 no matter what the setting in build 15. Is that correct?

4. If you plan on using Crimson to conform from FCP keep your takes short (i.e no 10min+ camera runs... think like a 35mm filmmaker.) Can Crimson not work with takes over 10min long? a bug or a permanent limitation?
 
Hi TJ,

I just wanted to throw something in on this - as well as for everyone else...

This frame rate thing has always confused me as I have mentioned before. Mainly because I am looking for something that will give us the most flexibility as to what we deliver the final product in.

I went to NAB and did a Director of Photography workshop - which was geared mostly towards using the RED camera. I found it to be a very informative workshop. I started thinking after posting this thread that maybe I should call Plaster City Productions and talk to them.

They have 3 very productive workflow setups for the RED camera and they also work real close to Off Hollywood. Plaster City ran a large part of that workshop at NAB and they seem to be rigging up to be an amazing DI suite for the RED.

I asked them some tech questions on what they thought would really give me the most flexibility and they said 23.98. He said you can use 24, but it just makes for a bit more work down the line in post. He said a large portion of the stuff they are working on is in 23.98 and he said you can do anything with it.

Also- he said a great tip on watching out for balancing your exposure was to shoot the faces of the actors at around 50 IRE. Of course be careful of your highlights from that point, but he said that is what they are aiming out for the most part.

Very very interesting stuff- and he was extremely helpful!!! I would most likely take this film to them to have them complete the full 4K. Plaster City seems to really be establishing themselves for this kind of shooting.


Mike- thank you again for everything. I am hoping that you can come out with us on the next shoot up there. We are shooting for the second week in July to complete all submarine sequences. Let me know. It was good seeing you at NAB.
 
tj williams said:
Hi ED. I have some questions.

When shooting with Panasonic and Sony HDCam we shot at 23.98 or output to NTSC SD as per their directions. I also shot Panasonic Varicam at 29.98 for output to NTSC which I felt looked nicer. Can you give some more detail as to why use straight 24fps?

"4K anamorphic (16:9) proxies do not work at present, so editing is a pain as you have to transcode all the 4K 16:9 files before you can edit." So at 2/1 the camera does make the quicktime proxys in build 15 but not in 16/9?

3. Keep the ASA pretty close to 320, most other changes can be done in post (REDCINE) When we change the EI in the camera the viewfinder becomes brighter but when playing back the viewfinder is the same unless we increase the EI of the playback. This seems to indicate to me and my asst. that the camera is always actually recording in EI320 no matter what the setting in build 15. Is that correct?

4. If you plan on using Crimson to conform from FCP keep your takes short (i.e no 10min+ camera runs... think like a 35mm filmmaker.) Can Crimson not work with takes over 10min long? a bug or a permanent limitation?
Click to expand...

1) I have always shot 24fps straight as I have been lead to believe (by my editors) that it makes for an easier conversion for PAL than 23.98 (I work in USA as well as in the UK). However, I agree that if final destination is NTSC only then 23.98 is probably the best idea.

2) 4K16:9 proxies are generated by the camera, but they do not work with current builds of REDALERT, FCP or Quicktime. If you try playing them you get the bottom half of the image garbled, hence you have to transcode the R3d's to Prores (or something else) to edit.

3) I could be totally wrong on this, but as far as I understand it the exposure has no effect on the actual r3d files (other than adding the users exposure setting to the meta data). It only affects the LCD/monitor and the quicktime proxies. REDCINE reads the meta data and will set the exposure to the in camera settings when it imports the file. The Mysterium sensor is rated very close to 320 ASA in it's sensitivity, hence shoot close to 320 ASA for the best use of the sensor.

4) I have been told that Crimson creates intermediates of the r3d files for each cut in an FCP time line. The number of intermediates is determined by the length of the clip (multiplied by the number of 2GB chunks it takes to make the master clip, because of the FAT 32 style recording RED does).
REDCINE has a limit to how many intermediates it can work with (I think it is 250). Hence, keep the shots shorter and reduce the number of intermediates.
I think a fix for this is being worked on... Anders?
 
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