feedback

[Christian Edwards]

Hey there ,
I was just wondering about the demand for RED outside of actual user/owner operator , by this i mean, is it getting attention to the point of being in demand for shoots?.How much are people with cameras already finding its popularity? I'm imagining from what i have notice so far that its reputation is preceding it...is the RED bug catching on? and also,whilst on topic, is there any "negative" feedback from film purists (no pun intended) ?

 

[Mike Prevette]

Talked today with one rental house clawing for it. They said they field a couple calls a day for it.

Most of the people who have a camera and are on this board seem to say it's been nonstop. Who knows what it will be like in a few months.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Hey there ,
I was just wondering about the demand for RED outside of actual user/owner operator , by this i mean, is it getting attention to the point of being in demand for shoots?.How much are people with cameras already finding its popularity? I'm imagining from what i have notice so far that its reputation is preceding it...is the RED bug catching on? and also,whilst on topic, is there any "negative" feedback from film purists (no pun intended) ?

On one hand, filmmakers do seem to be clamoring for it. Then, on the other, they seem very leery of it. I was on a large commercial shoot recently and the DIT's and AC's guffawed at the mere mention of the camera...like it was some grand fuckin' joke, and I was somehow left out of the punchline. Whatever. At the end of the day, you use what works for you. Everyone else be damned.

I remember having similar conversations about the differences between Avid and FCP back in the day. You still have Avid purists, but many of the large houses have incorporated FCP workflows into their business paradigms...

Again, ultimately...who cares. Use what works, and make movies.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Hey there ,
I was just wondering about the demand for RED outside of actual user/owner operator , by this i mean, is it getting attention to the point of being in demand for shoots?.How much are people with cameras already finding its popularity? I'm imagining from what i have notice so far that its reputation is preceding it...is the RED bug catching on? and also,whilst on topic, is there any "negative" feedback from film purists (no pun intended) ?

And in relation to your true question, I'm not sure how pervasive the camera technology has spread to the populace outside of filmmaking circles. However, it was been featured as THE gadget to have in numerous publications. And I've even read on this forum that the average Joe has gone up to the filmmakers using the camera on location and asked, "Hey, is that the new RED camera?"

If that's any indication, I think most savvy ad execs and others are well in the know. Now do they wish to take a risk with their jobs, and essentially experimental technology on high budget shoots...maybe not so much. I don't know though.

I really think it'll be us early adopters that help the camera cross the proverbial chasm and gain mainstream acceptance and usage. what the hell do I know though?

 

[redicule]

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Now do they wish to take a risk with their jobs, and essentially experimental technology on high budget shoots...maybe not so much. I don't know though.

I really think it'll be us early adopters that help the camera cross the proverbial chasm and gain mainstream acceptance and usage. what the hell do I know though?
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you are wise beyond your words.... this is exactly what is happening

 

[Christian Edwards]

On one hand, filmmakers do seem to be clamoring for it. Then, on the other, they seem very leery of it. I was on a large commercial shoot recently and the DIT's and AC's guffawed at the mere mention of the camera...like it was some grand fuckin' joke, and I was somehow left out of the punchline. Whatever. At the end of the day, you use what works for you. Everyone else be damned.

I remember having similar conversations about the differences between Avid and FCP back in the day. You still have Avid purists, but many of the large houses have incorporated FCP workflows into their business paradigms...

Again, ultimately...who cares. Use what works, and make movies.

same thing happen in the music industry, people seem to feel sound loses its warmth although digital representation of analog is now at the point of near indifference

 

[jtcoleman]

the ongoing Film -vs-Digital debate

the ongoing Film -vs-Digital debate

same thing happen in the music industry, people seem to feel sound loses its warmth although digital representation of analog is now at the point of near indifference

Yeah, it seems like there is always a lot of resistance when new (and potentially revolutionary) technology enters an established market.

Some of the pros (the good ones in my opinion) will embrace the new technology and use their depth of experience to make it really sing. Others look at it as a threat to their livelihood, scared that it could devalidate or dillute the experience they've spent years amassing.

Historically, the argument for film has been more centered on image quality... and rightfully so. Now, the image quality argument is getting harder to make -- and the other areas (cost, speed, pipeline, accessibility) are getting even harder.

I'm starting to see the arguments shift to over to things like "film is more permanent medium than digital", which quite frankly baffles me.

The real winners, IMO, are the really experienced pros who will embrace the new technology as another tool in their toolkit... who realize that RED won't replace everything that came before it in every situation, but also realize that it has amazing potential, it isn't "just a toy", and it is capable of producting stunning results.

Those are the guys that I want to work with. and learn from.

JT
Austin, Tx

 

[Craig Schober]

On one hand, filmmakers do seem to be clamoring for it. Then, on the other, they seem very leery of it. I was on a large commercial shoot recently and the DIT's and AC's guffawed at the mere mention of the camera...like it was some grand fuckin' joke, and I was somehow left out of the punchline. Whatever. At the end of the day, you use what works for you. Everyone else be damned.

that's mostly emotional response. filmmakers love to feel like part of the club and those who have something to lose will generally hold on until their "club" dies out or just recruits new members. i've found that most red adopters (myself included) just don't have as much to lose. we've not only been waiting to jump into a new technology workflow but also don't have a whole lot invested in older technology. it's kind of like going from tiger to leopard os. on my work machine, i hesitate to upgrade but on my mac at home, i throw on leopard and am more than happy to be apple's "beta" tester.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

==================================
Now do they wish to take a risk with their jobs, and essentially experimental technology on high budget shoots...maybe not so much. I don't know though.

I really think it'll be us early adopters that help the camera cross the proverbial chasm and gain mainstream acceptance and usage. what the hell do I know though?
==================================

you are wise beyond your words.... this is exactly what is happening

Thanks. I've been talking to the producers of my upcoming film about embracing RED for our workflow. At that point, there should be enough cameras in circulation and we'll most likely be renting. Depends on how cost effective it will be considering our four week schedule, of course. I sure as hell hope we can buy them...and then somehow I can Jedi mind trick one into my home after the shoot. :shiftyph34r:

"This is not the camera you are looking for."

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Historically, the argument for film has been more centered on image quality... and rightfully so. Now, the image quality argument is getting harder to make -- and the other areas (cost, speed, pipeline, accessibility) are getting even harder.

Most producer I know are in a kind of wait and see position. The word is here: Why should I leave a proven workflow? IMHO a secure worflow is the main argument here. Something RED has still to prove. Producers tend to be very conservative on the technical side.

Hans

 

[I Bloom]

I've been hearing mixed reports about the camera. I had a conversation today with a gaffer who had been on a RED shoot and they said they thought it didn't compare to 16mm!

When you hear something like this, you need only ask one question. How was the image you saw posted. Invariably, if they have something negative to say about the image, the answer will be I don't know.

RED = Post. If one knows nothing about Red post, one knows nothing about Red. End of story.

IBloom

 

[M Most]

Most producer I know are in a kind of wait and see position. The word is here: Why should I leave a proven workflow? IMHO a secure worflow is the main argument here. Something RED has still to prove. Producers tend to be very conservative on the technical side.

Quite true.

The very thing that so many people here seem to love about Red - its ever-changing specs, capabilities, software tools, and potential work flows - are exactly why so many professionals, in both production and post, are wary of it. It's difficult to commit a 30-40 day shoot with another 4-6 months of post to a product whose operating characteristics and support programs seem to change weekly. If you're shooting a one or two day commercial or music video, or doing personal projects, it's all very exciting. But if you've got a reasonable budget, experienced editor, and a delivery date, you need to create a post path at the beginning of the project that won't change 3 weeks into it.

 

[McDiver]

Similar story. I'd been talking with a producer over the last year about shooting his next feature with Red. When I caught up with him recently, he admitted that he kept hearing about the camera, and was interested. I started gathering my collection of images, movies and statistics to discuss it over lunch, when he calls to tell me he's been in contact with a local, reputable, DP who already owns a Red. I say, "Great!" and he says the DP is unimpressed -- not really pleased with the image.
I fire back, "What's his background?"
"He shoots 35!"
I laugh. How many film-oriented DPs are as heavy into the post-production process as your average video geek? Seriously. Sometimes I wonder if the unions have done more of a disservice by encouraging isolation of skillsets. I tell the producer that's the problem. Just because it's called a camera doesn't mean the image pops out seran-wrapped and ready for consumption.
So I hang up.
This camera is like a stock trying to rise past support, with a whole industry buying puts on it. It may feel slow, at first. But it's really building pressue! And when Red does break through those barriers, only the people who invested early will see the most gain.

 

[M Most]

...he calls to tell me he's been in contact with a local, reputable, DP who already owns a Red. I say, "Great!" and he says the DP is unimpressed -- not really pleased with the image.
I fire back, "What's his background?"
"He shoots 35!"
I laugh. How many film-oriented DPs are as heavy into the post-production process as your average video geek? Seriously. Sometimes I wonder if the unions have done more of a disservice by encouraging isolation of skillsets. I tell the producer that's the problem. Just because it's called a camera doesn't mean the image pops out seran-wrapped and ready for consumption.
So I hang up.

Why are you assuming that a reputable DP who happens to shoot mostly 35mm film (most reputable DP's do, BTW), wouldn't understand how post works? Or that he wouldn't understand the tools used to correct Red images? A film shooter would likely understand the need for color correction and processing much more than a video shooter, since all film must be processed and color timed by definition. Did you ever consider that it might just be possible that some cinematographers simply prefer the visual characteristics of film to digital media? Red images may be quite beautiful when properly exposed and processed, but in most cases they are noticeably different than film images. Some cinematographers will prefer one, others will prefer the other, at least for certain projects and under certain conditions. It is not an absolute that one is always superior to the other. If you don't see that, you're the one who's being closed minded.

 

[E.J. Sadler]

Did you ever consider that it might just be possible that some cinematographers simply prefer the visual characteristics of film to digital media? Red images may be quite beautiful when properly exposed and processed, but in most cases they are noticeably different than film images. Some cinematographers will prefer one, others will prefer the other, at least for certain projects and under certain conditions.

I have enough experience shooting stills and pushing them in post to know that any film look can be had in post. It will only be a brief matter of time before you can duplicate the look of any film stock with a post plug-in in your grading suite. When that's the case, it will make no sense to narrow your options at exposure time.

I have no doubt there are people already feverishly working on this.

 

[I Bloom]

Why are you assuming that a reputable DP who happens to shoot mostly 35mm film (most reputable DP's do, BTW), wouldn't understand how post works? Or that he wouldn't understand the tools used to correct Red images?

Well... in a word, yes.
He might not understand a lot of things about Redcode, about workflow etc.
If he is saying he shot some stuff with it and posted in Scratch and did a 4K filmout at DuArt and still he was like "meh". Then ok fine, your entitled to your oppinion. But very few have done that, so what do they know really, what are they judging based on exactly.

I don't think that deep knowledge of RED post is widespread knowledge. And yes many reputable people wouldn't understand the difference between a fully decompressed and debayered image, and a proxie or between flat ungraded raw and something that has had the right amount of grading.

I'm interested in oppinions about Red's dynamic range, about sharpness, about grain. But I mean seriously, if someone looks at this footage and says it looks like 16mm, that is just objectively wrong. Something got lost in the pipeline.

You might like 16mm better, but that's a different story.

IBloom

 

[Christian Edwards]

RED = Post. If one knows nothing about Red post, one knows nothing about Red. End of story.

IBloom

BINGO!

 

[M Most]

Well... in a word, yes.
He might not understand a lot of things about Redcode, about workflow etc.
If he is saying he shot some stuff with it and posted in Scratch and did a 4K filmout at DuArt and still he was like "meh". Then ok fine, your entitled to your oppinion. But very few have done that, so what do they know really, what are they judging based on exactly.

But you didn't ask about any of that. You're making assumptions based on your own preconceived notions about experienced cinematographers - notions that those of us who have a lot of experience with such people would likely all agree are dead wrong. Not to mention the simple fact that many of the "video geeks" that you mentioned earlier are no more expert at things like raw conversion and color correction than those you are currently accusing. As evidence I offer many of the images posted on this very forum.

If he is saying he shot some stuff with it and posted in Scratch and did a 4K filmout at DuArt and still he was like "meh". Then ok fine, your entitled to your oppinion. But very few have done that...

But I have, albeit with material shot by a very good cameraman, color corrected (by me) with his supervision and approval. And I've shown the results - via both digital projection and film projection (they are almost identical in our case - the color management was done by us, the prints were made by, coincidentally, DuArt) to a number of local cameramen. Some liked it very much. Some felt that it lacked some of the texture they like from film. Some preferred the film projection to the digital projection for just that reason. All of which seems to illustrate my point.

I don't think that deep knowledge of RED post is widespread knowledge.

That I agree with, in part because Red post still hasn't been fully defined (so nobody really has deep knowledge of it) and in part because, well, there are only 100 of them out there at the moment.

And yes many reputable people wouldn't understand the difference between a fully decompressed and debayered image, and a proxie or between flat ungraded raw and something that has had the right amount of grading.

Again, you're stating things that just aren't the case. For someone who might be aspiring to be a cinematographer, you seem to have very little respect for those who have already demonstrated their proficiency and artistry. The good ones - and especially the great ones - know a lot more than you seem to want to give them credit for. And they are constantly educating themselves about new equipment and methods, contrary to what you seem to be implying. If you don't believe me, you might want to talk to Dave Mullen about this. I'm quite sure he'll confirm what I'm trying to say.

 

[M Most]

I have enough experience shooting stills and pushing them in post to know that any film look can be had in post.

For a still, perhaps. But usually only when there is an actual film image as a matching reference. And not for motion footage.

It will only be a brief matter of time before you can duplicate the look of any film stock with a post plug-in in your grading suite. When that's the case, it will make no sense to narrow your options at exposure time.

I'm guessing that you haven't shot a lot of motion picture film. And that's perfectly OK. However, for those that have, there is a difference in the pallette delivered by the two mediums. As I said - not better, not worse. Different. This gives a cinematographer choices, and that is a good thing.

 

[John V]

Two words so far and certainly not the last..Jackson Soderberg.