Fear of Post

[Joe G.]

I have several nagging fears about jumping into this red pool, but the biggest so far is that I have no idea what is going to happen when it comes time to assemble the actual movie. You guys have 50 different programs, and all sorts of jargon complicating matters to an unacceptable degree.

I can't make an informed decision about what it will cost for post production.

Is there a LIST of post production houses that support the Red system?

Are there special effects companies I can contact that support your format?

Apparently there is a program called "Scratch" that apparently sells for $5000??? In order to use the footage on another (standard?) platform you have to pay a third party software company 5 gs?

Is that correct?

Why doesn't RED simply provide a file conversion application for FREE?

When you create a proprietary format like ".R3D" you incur some responsibility to see that it has adequate support and compatibility.

Lastly, I would like to know about editing "proxies" that are smaller than the 4k native files. Is this process explained simply somewhere? How easy is it to take this data to a place and say "Make me a 35mm print?"

I don't want to get a PHD in computer science in order to put my movie together.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I have several nagging fears about jumping into this red pool, but the biggest so far is that I have no idea what is going to happen when it comes time to assemble the actual movie. You guys have 50 different programs, and all sorts of jargon complicating matters to an unacceptable degree.

I can't make an informed decision about what it will cost for post production.

Is there a LIST of post production houses that support the Red system?

Are there special effects companies I can contact that support your format?

Apparently there is a program called "Scratch" that apparently sells for $5000??? In order to use the footage on another (standard?) platform you have to pay a third party software company 5 gs?

Is that correct?

Why doesn't RED simply provide a file conversion application for FREE?

When you create a proprietary format like ".R3D" you incur some responsibility to see that it has adequate support and compatibility.

Lastly, I would like to know about editing "proxies" that are smaller than the 4k native files. Is this process explained simply somewhere? How easy is it to take this data to a place and say "Make me a 35mm print?"

I don't want to get a PHD in computer science in order to put my movie together.

1. red one is a computer
2. scratch is around 50 k -80k and not 5k
3. redcine is free------- red.com/support
4. you will need the QT/FCP plug ins
5. if you wish you can get the log and transfer plug in and log the r3d files directly into fcp
6. redalert and redline are free too
7. yes we all wait for the releasing of the sdk
8. its better to ask politly then shout
9. i forgot the redcine tutorials
10. maybe you are interested in crimsonworkflow.com

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

and about your how easy is it to make a 35 mm print....

go to a Posthouse....then talk to the lab they are using...
then you will get an idea about dpx files, Look up Tables, log, linear Colorspaces
etc.....


the quality you want dictates the amount of energy you are putting in
the postworkflow....
find the sweetspot for you

 

[Greg M]

or simply buy Final Cut and drop the quicktimes the Red camera produces and start editing...couldn't be simplier.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Shoot with an HVX200. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way at all. The workflow is probably a bit easier to grasp and lots of post production houses support P2 at this point.

If you want to shoot with RED, then I suggest doing a bit more research as it is more involved than P2 in some ways, although I could also argue that in terms of simple editing, RED workflow can be faster.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

the workflow is easy...
but if you know nothing a lot can go wrong...

best would be to talk to the rental house/owner you will get the cam...
if you want to buy you will have some time to search in the apple workflow forum for your answers.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I have several nagging fears about jumping into this red pool, but the biggest so far is that I have no idea what is going to happen when it comes time to assemble the actual movie.

It's a new technology. If you're not comfortable with it and with learning new technologies, then perhaps you should stick with something you feel comfortable with. Not trying to dis you at all. But if you're that uncomfortable with it, then it may not be right for you.

You guys have 50 different programs, and all sorts of jargon complicating matters to an unacceptable degree.

You want jargon? How about this... taken from bits of actual email regarding a project a friend of mine is working on...

I've shot 35 3-perf. I think there was a perf slip on Lab1 in TK, so the D-Betas will need to be slipped by 1. The one light seems to have been done a stop up for some reason, so be careful of that.

When you rehang for best light, please supply an accurate ALE or FLX file referencing the 3-perf O-Neg. If there is any perf mixing (3- + 4-,) make sure that they are broken into separate FLX files.

DI will be from 10-bit log DPX files with appopriate TC/Reel metadata in headers (I think it's going to be on a Northlight2.) Not sure whether it will be on SCRATCH or Resolve.
​

So that's some film workflow for you. Jargon is all a matter of perspective.

Is there a LIST of post production houses that support the Red system? Are there special effects companies I can contact that support your format?

Where are you based?

Apparently there is a program called "Scratch" that apparently sells for $5000??? In order to use the footage on another (standard?) platform you have to pay a third party software company 5 gs?

I work for the company that makes SCRATCH, and it is more than 5 G's.

Why doesn't RED simply provide a file conversion application for FREE? When you create a proprietary format like ".R3D" you incur some responsibility to see that it has adequate support and compatibility.

Perhaps 5 minutes of research would have helped you before you posted this. RED provides two free tools off their website that are file conversion apps.

Lastly, I would like to know about editing "proxies" that are smaller than the 4k native files. Is this process explained simply somewhere? How easy is it to take this data to a place and say "Make me a 35mm print?"

The Final Cut/RED workflow is explained ad nauseum in a bozillion places on the web. Do a bit of research. Making a print is a fairly specialized and involved process. You should talk to a reputable film-out house in your area to see what they require.

I don't want to get a PHD in computer science in order to put my movie together.

You don't need one... but you do need how to use Google and pick up a phone every once in awhile.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

You don't need one... but you do need how to use Google and pick up a phone every once in awhile.

hahahaha best advice of the year

 

[Joe G.]

"but you do need how to use Google and pick up a phone every once in awhile."

Spare me the arrogance. "It's on the web" isn't really an answer, now is it? I've been reading a forum dedicated to the camera for two days now and have isolated very few hard facts about the post production process. One would think the company would make a clear how-to that doesn't require google or phone calls to arrive at a simple explanation.

Your other advice to start calling random post production houses, in the hope that they'd heard of the Red One isn't exactly what I was looking for either.

A lot of ego here.

I'm in Northern California.

I hardly think I'm asking too much for the company to give a clear explanation of how their system will work END TO END. If the customer is unsure of how it will work, he won't buy. These concepts aren't all that radical now are they?

If the Red requires a monopoly solution (like yours? face it, you're not exactly an impartial voice here) the costs will be inflated at that stage, and THAT is what I am trying to quantify.

 

[Joe G.]

"or simply buy Final Cut and drop the quicktimes the Red camera produces and start editing...couldn't be simplier."

And after that, when I want to get some vfx produced at the minimum cost, what format will I be stuck in? What format will I need to convert to, and etc.?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

"or simply buy Final Cut and drop the quicktimes the Red camera produces and start editing...couldn't be simplier."

And after that, when I want to get some vfx produced at the minimum cost, what format will I be stuck in? What format will I need to convert to, and etc.?

ok here is the money doenst matters and i have all the skills workflow
and i will make a filmoutput for a vfx film

buy a mac pro fully rigged, a san, a scratch suit.

shoot redcode 4k/3k/2k
load proxies into fcp/ transcode proxies to prores then load to fcp/or load the r3d files via the log and transfer plug in to fcp...
.....
transcode all the neccessary vfx shots to dpx files....give them to the vfx house...

finish editing your movie
export a edl
load everything to your scratch suite...
CC
finish
send to arrilaser

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

sorry forgot the minimum cost....here we are again...depends what quality is enough for your needs...
you can go from dpx log/lin files, uncompressed QT to Pro Res...choose what fit your needs best

 

[Andrew M.]

When I started here one year or so ago, I had the same fear about cine jargon.
I am on electronic side and all these FCP/PR/RAW/DPX/AE/LUT/Kelvin/etc. were making me sea sick.

Well, this forum is better than school or RED course.
If you come here few times a week you will be digital cinema pro in no time.
Very friendly environment, and a lot of helpful people here from around the world.

Alternatively take a Digital RAW photography course or maybe RED course if someone will organize it.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

and if you think that was cinejargon wait until you see when
graeme, joofa, lucas, ian, anders, bruce and jan are talking...

this place is a half hacker school

 

[Steve Sherrick]

"but you do need how to use Google and pick up a phone every once in awhile."

Spare me the arrogance. "It's on the web" isn't really an answer, now is it? I've been reading a forum dedicated to the camera for two days now and have isolated very few hard facts about the post production process. One would think the company would make a clear how-to that doesn't require google or phone calls to arrive at a simple explanation.

Your other advice to start calling random post production houses, in the hope that they'd heard of the Red One isn't exactly what I was looking for either.

A lot of ego here.

I'm in Northern California.

I hardly think I'm asking too much for the company to give a clear explanation of how their system will work END TO END. If the customer is unsure of how it will work, he won't buy. These concepts aren't all that radical now are they?

If the Red requires a monopoly solution (like yours? face it, you're not exactly an impartial voice here) the costs will be inflated at that stage, and THAT is what I am trying to quantify.

In all due respect, spare us the arrogance.:wink:

You will find that you will get endless support in here if you show up, introduce yourself, ask some friendly questions, and don't make crazy assumptions/statements with one of your first posts.

Now, let's get beyond that. Resources, such as video tutorials and workflow white papers are not plentiful at this time, but that will be changing in the coming months, once Build 16 is released. These will help those who are new to the camera, as well as though who have been around it for a while.

For now, I suggest learning what you can about the process. As a filmmaker, you need to put the effort into knowing what your options are, what can help you tell your story. The best way to know that is either do some of your own tests or talk to people with a lot of experience with the tools you are inquiring about.

A lot of us on here are enjoying learning from others and in return helping when we can. That's the overall spirit of this place. There may be some egos but for the most part there are a lot of good people, with hearts of gold, so keep that in mind if you can.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

"but you do need how to use Google and pick up a phone every once in awhile." Spare me the arrogance.

I'm sorry for being a bit brusque. But I can't help answering with a bit of attitude when with questions like "Why doesn't RED simply provide a file conversion application for FREE?," you make it clear you haven't even spent the time to look through RED's website.

http://www.red.com/cameras/workflow

And no, I'm not impartial - but I do understand and know this workflow inside and out. RED does not require a monopoly solution. And there are *hundreds* of threads on this forum outlining Final Cut workflows, Crimson workflows, SCRATCH workflows, etc.

Try reading up here, for instance...

http://www.plastercitypost.com/red-overview.php

Or see the entire, very large subforums under 4K Workflow called "REDCINE" and "RED ALERT."

A lot of ego here.

You should see my Id.

I'm in Northern California.

In SF, Monaco does very reasonably priced film-outs. In LA, you (obviously) have a wide choice of facilities. The ones that understand the RED workflow the best for film-outs are probably Plaster City, Technicolor, Laser Pacific, and Modern Videofilm (Glendale.)

I hardly think I'm asking too much for the company to give a clear explanation of how their system will work END TO END. If the customer is unsure of how it will work, he won't buy. These concepts aren't all that radical now are they?

No, they're not. Go to the RED link I posted above. Email or call somebody at Off-Hollywood, Plaster City, Cineworks, etc.

Lucas

 

[Ed Watkins]

I hardly think I'm asking too much for the company to give a clear explanation of how their system will work END TO END. If the customer is unsure of how it will work, he won't buy. These concepts aren't all that radical now are they?

If the Red requires a monopoly solution (like yours? face it, you're not exactly an impartial voice here) the costs will be inflated at that stage, and THAT is what I am trying to quantify.

Due to the nature of RED being 4K there is no one finishing solution. Just as there isn't one way to Telecine film.

R3D is not tied to one editing system, hence there is no one editing solution. It isn't as simple as HDCAM or P2 footage because it can be manipulated in ways that they simply can't.

Some people use REDCINE and FCP to finish their footage, some people use Scratch or AVID.

If you do some basic research and ask specific questions you will get specific answers, like how much it will cost to finish a project on RED at you final output specifications.
Ask generic questions like "How does it work?" and you will get generic (and annoying) answers.

You are asking a question that cannot be answered unless you provide more information about how YOU want to use the RED and it's footage. Give us that and we'll give you the rest.

 

[I Bloom]

I have several nagging fears about jumping into this red pool, but the biggest so far is that I have no idea what is going to happen when it comes time to assemble the actual movie. You guys have 50 different programs, and all sorts of jargon complicating matters to an unacceptable degree.

I can't make an informed decision about what it will cost for post production.

Is there a LIST of post production houses that support the Red system?

Are there special effects companies I can contact that support your format?

Apparently there is a program called "Scratch" that apparently sells for $5000??? In order to use the footage on another (standard?) platform you have to pay a third party software company 5 gs?

Is that correct?

Why doesn't RED simply provide a file conversion application for FREE?

When you create a proprietary format like ".R3D" you incur some responsibility to see that it has adequate support and compatibility.

Lastly, I would like to know about editing "proxies" that are smaller than the 4k native files. Is this process explained simply somewhere? How easy is it to take this data to a place and say "Make me a 35mm print?"

I don't want to get a PHD in computer science in order to put my movie together.

The best advice I can give you is to get your hands on a Red camera and a set of Superspeed MkIII's. Go out and shoot something for fun, not for a client. Then try to take it through post. Try it a few different ways. You may find that the RAW way of working is something that you truly enjoy and climbing this new learning curve can add some vitality to one's work-life.

Don't take out a Red for the first time and shoot something for a client. That is the failure recipe repeated over and over on this forum.

Best of Success,
IBloom

 

[SF Geek]

Talk to Monaco Labs in San Francisco. They have a Scratch system there. They should be able to deal with whatever Red workflow you'd like. I know a few Red owners in the Bay Area that would be willing to talk you through the workflow options as well. If you're closer to Sacramento there is Silverado in Folsom.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The best advice I can give you is to get your hands on a Red camera and a set of Superspeed MkIII's. Go out and shoot something for fun, not for a client. Then try to take it through post. Try it a few different ways. You may find that the RAW way of working is something that you truly enjoy and climbing this new learning curve can add some vitality to one's work-life.

Don't take out a Red for the first time and shoot something for a client. That is the failure recipe repeated over and over on this forum.

Best of Success,
IBloom

This is great advice Ian.