FCP to 4K Film-out

[Dennis A]

Hello,

I'm not entirely certain this is the right forum, but since my workflow has been primarily FCP to this point, I figured it was a good place to start.

Let me begin by saying drive space and money are not an issue. ...or not a show stopping one.

We shot RED (obviously) transcoded to ProRes 4x4 2K for editing with a plan to film-out from that. Now, however, extra money has come in to play and we would like to deliver 4K to our post house.

My plan was to export an XML from FCP, bring it in to ClipFinder 2.5 to link to R3D files and send the timeline to REDCINE-X where I'd use the Rocket to export 4K DPX files. This has hit a snag since there are time remaps on some clips causing them to not line up in R-X and since other clips (seemingly at random) just refuse to line up at all.

My next (and obscenely long and drive space intense idea) was to go FCP via XML and ClipFinder to REDCINE-X, render out uncompressed 4K quicktimes, reconform THAT in FCP and strike the DPX from that, but that's two long transcodes AND I lose the benefit of the Rocket on the second transcode. Plus, it's just ridiculously convoluted.

What, then, are my options to get from ProRes 2K to uncompressed 4K DPX files struck off the raw R3D files? If I can do this on my end before sending it to my post house, that would be ideal.

thanks!
dennis

 

[Dennis A]

RED Workflow

RED Workflow

As a bonus, here's the RED Workflow I drafted up a short time ago before it was known we would have to do a full 4K Upres.

The 4K Upres referred to in the workflow still assumes a ProRes 2K export.

RED Workflow

FileMaker Pro template

dennis

 

[Oliver Peters]

If you used FCP L&T to transcode (a must), then you can go from FCP to After Effects CS5 via Automatic Duck ProImportAE5. There is an option to replace media with R3D. Then in AE change your composition settings to 4K. Or copy & paste the AE clips into Premiere Pro CS5. Both will let you export DPX. Not sure how the speed ramps will be handled. Constant speed will probably work, but variable may not.

- Oliver

 

[Dennis A]

Thanks for the reply Oliver, but since we had the REDRocket, all transcoding was done in RocketCine-X (as REDCINE-X wasn't a viable option at the time) so any workflow that necessitates L&T at the top won't work.

dennis

 

[Ben Brainerd]

You can try going FCP -> Clipfinder -> FCP -> Color.

Take your current edited sequence, send the XML to clipfinder, connect to the proxies (Doesn't matter which ones but _F will save you some headaches in the Geometry room), back to FCP, send the sequence to Color, render your DPXs from there.

A couple of caveats:
1) Any time remaps will need to be un-remapped and judicious notes handed to whoever's doing your finals. Color does NOT like remaps on a DPX workflow.

2) You need Color 1.5 to be able to work 4K

One benefit of this workflow is that you've got (Beta. Hell, really it's Alpha) Rocket support in Color. It's not as fast a RC-X, but still.

Come to think of it, if you're not doing any grading, you could do something similar with the RC-X bounce you were talking about. Un-Remap the clips in FCP, send them to RC-X via Clipfinder and render your DPXs. Hand your finishing tech copious notes. Or render *just* the remapped clips to ProRes4 4K, back to FCP, etc.

 

[M Most]

What, then, are my options to get from ProRes 2K to uncompressed 4K DPX files struck off the raw R3D files? If I can do this on my end before sending it to my post house, that would be ideal.

Have you talked to your post house about this? It takes a very hefty system to deal with uncompressed 4K files in anything close to real time for color grading. The only systems really capable of that are Baselight 8, a fully configured Pablo, or a very heavily equipped Resolve or Lustre. Much less costly versions of these and other systems can, however, be used if you supply them with the original R3D files instead of doing a transcode yourself. And you would save both yourself and the facility a lot of potential copy and/or transcode time, not to mention disk space. And you could still have them output 4K files if you really want that (I don't know what you're delivering or to whom that you find that necessary, but you seem set on doing it).

 

[Dennis A]

Thanks, Most. I've posed the question to our post house (Fotokem) as to wether they would rather have the R3D files and am waiting to hear back. I, too, would rather deliver that way, but at the moment, they seem to be interested in having us deliver 4K DPX as well. Hence my pursuing this avenue.

Ben, I'll be testing your suggested workflow this afternoon and see how each one fares.

thanks again for all the suggestions!
dennis

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Are you heading for a 4K DCDM?

Cheers - #19

 

[Dennis A]

Blair,

To my knowledge, we'll be doing both film and DCDM with greater emphasis on getting the film out to look accurate. We've already had two screenings off HD CAM and DCDM and both looked good, so we know we can nail that look. Now I need to find a way to get them 4K DPX as close to the 2K DPX (rendered off ProRes 2K 4x4) as possible so the color will be easy to match.

dennis

 

[Dennis A]

Workflow update:

Bring all RED clips into REDCINE-X (best to export an XML of a FCP project with all the logged clips), set the color and gamma space (REC709 and CameraRGB for my workflow) and any other image corrections necessary (for me, some clips were shot with a −50 tint into magenta), then render out "Quicktime Wrapper" with "Output with Clip Filename to Clip Folder" and "Overwrite existing files" checked. This will replace the four QT reference movies in each clip folder.

Now, export an XML of your sequence to conform and, using ClipFinder, reconform the XML to point to the _F proxies. Import the new XML into Final Cut and your sequence should now be pointing to the raw RED files with your one-light color correction.

Here is where I'm currently stuck. It's a relatively easy thing to render out of FCP using Send to Compressor to make the DPX files, but that will obviously take quite a while. Sending the sequence to Color ignores the one-light done prior and will read each RED clip with its base color images. What I need now is to find a way for color to adhere to my one-light or some other way to get the 4K DPX files struck off the sequences using more than one core (and the Rocket, if possible).

EDIT: ...I only just now saw the Copy to All option in Color. That removes another major road block. I'll test the export and report back.

EDIT 2: Copy to All changes Kelvin as well. Back to square one.

dennis

p.s. This method currently bakes in all frame resizes, time remaps, etc into the final DPX.

 

[Asiel]

Regarding this workflow

Regarding this workflow

Hi everyone.

I'm working with FCP 6 on a mac. I have searched the form and found workflows that seem to be beyond what I am looking to do.
Currently I am using FCP's log and transfer for Red footage. In the Log and Transfer window under preferences, there is an option to ingest the footage natively or as Apple prores 422. (Here is a screen shot)



What exactly does natively mean? What is the difference? Usually I have been using Prores to ingest, and I don't really see much of a difference between the two.

I have not had the need to export to 4k, however my curiosity has been peaked.
From other threads I have read, I am under the impression that 4k can not be ingested in FCP. Instead 2k files are ingested(which has been my experience, unless there are options I am over looking). Is this correct?
Is there a way to export right from FCP to 4k? Again, some threads say to re-link directly to the R3D files for a 4k export.

What are the limitations to ingesting through FCP at 2k, it's already larger than 1920x1080, so what is the issue?
Is this 4k workflow the best for features going to the Theaters?

Where can I get more info on EDL or DPX files? I don't fully understand how they are used to export to 4k. Is Redcine-x the best solution for 4k exports?



Thanks.

 

[Ben Brainerd]

Hi everyone.

Is there a particular reason you decided to threat-jack this topic rather than creating a new one? While violating the Real Name policy no less? I would suggest fixing both issues before the mods (Who appear to be grumpy these days) break out the banhammer.

*EVERYTHING* You've asked about has been covered ad nauseum. You may not be aware of it, which is why I'm trying to to jump on you too hard, but you have basically asked "Tell me everything about RED post-production."

I would suggest doing some searching and coming back (to a non-jacked thread) with some more specific questions.

 

[Dennis A]

One benefit of this workflow is that you've got (Beta. Hell, really it's Alpha) Rocket support in Color. It's not as fast a RC-X, but still.

Ben,

I've been unable to find a way to enable Rocket support in Color, though I've been doing tests all day and (not counting how long a Color render with the Rocket would take), it seems the best path is to export a QT from the Final Cut timeline of the one-light RED Proxies and then use Compressor to strike the DPX files since I can at least put all my cores to use. Naturally, this brings with it HUGE storage space requirements (I didn't have time to try creating QT Reference movies, but that's on the list).

This may all become academic as we may decide to stick with our current 2K workflow for various reasons (i.e. push-ins, rotations, reframes).

I still intend to chase this down as far as possible for the sake of completeness and to help anyone else who may need the info (without thread jacking, that is).

If any one else wants to chime in with additional workflow options, I'm still exploring paths and would be happy to report back any successes or hiccups that may crop up. Though for now I'm forgoing anything requiring Automatic Duck since I don't have a copy and, without a proven workflow, probably can't convince the production to purchase it.

dennis

 

[Ben Brainerd]

The Color rocket support is currently in Alpha/Beta. You need to download a new version of the Color frameworks. There's a thread about it somewhere in this forum.

Using Compressor to render DPX seems counterintuitive, as Compressor can't use the Rocket. Assuming you have one, or are getting one, RC-X is probably the best way to go if you end up deciding on a DPX workflow.

 

[Alex MacLean]

XML out of FCP into RCX, then export selects from RCX as DPX with full debayer to desired resolution. Your post house should be able to conform everything to their finishing package with either an EDL or XML without a problem.

~ Alex

 

[Dennis A]

Thanks Alex and Ben for the replies. I'll definitely do more rigorous searching on Monday to see if I can enable Rocket support in Color.

The reason I'm not doing a simple XML to get the timeline through ClipFinder in to RCX and, instead, using Compressor is because RCX still does a terrible job at conforming when time remaps and push-ins are involved. With Final Cut/Compressor, I am at least baking in all my push-ins, rotations and time remaps (and there are A LOT! Some happen multiple times in one shot.) since, despite having good financial backing, I'm still the only other person in editorial aside from my editor.

It kills me that I lose the render speed of the Rocket, but it's worth being able to set it to run over night and knowing that the final product will come out looking as intended.

dennis

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Something that works?

Something that works?

My "freeish" DI system can make a set of frames in edit order.

I did not see if your lab wants the frame files as a whole set for the length of the film or by the reel?

Anyway, if you can see time code for the cut points from the start of each shot in FCP, then all that should be needed is to enter those offsets manually in the edit list in my program and it will trim the shots in the right order and output the frame set, even for file types that are not supported yet.

Right now it can only CC 4K TIFF 48bpp, I am working on a add-on for DPX.

The "opticals" would need to be rendered to frames showing at 24fps (or 23.976fps).

Entering the trim time code offsets for 800+ shots should only take a few days if you can look at them on the screen as you play your final edit. My program uses the slate frame as frame 00:00:00:00 for each shot. The sound mix is done after picture lock using the automatic track mixing built in with up to 16 channel output.

If your lab can take 4K TIFF 48bpp, then you can shot to shot re-CC in my program as well, although the render time takes several computers, the add-on I am working on shoud render faster. With just outputing the frames in order, no rendering is done, it just copies and renames the frames so that is fast.

Anyway, its something that may help with untangling messed up workflows, since my methods are simple and intergrated if not fast.

Its possable to edit at lower resolution in FCP or any other program, then just pass that cut point info to the edit list manually, or to use my NLE to edit with, or to use my NLE to check, or to output a smaller set of frame copies from the 4K TIF to convert into an AVI in VirtualDUB or something to check that the right edit points are there, you can do a side by side with FCP to check the images at each cut point etc. As long as you audio WAV is the right length to match the frame count any audio should match, if not you can resample the WAV to be the right length. If one cut is off, you just need to change the right in or out value and re-export the CCed frames which is just a file copy not a render.

 

[Charles Angus]

I would take your FCP sequence and your R3D's to a professional post house - preferably one that specializes in file-based workflows - and have them do everything for you. That way you have the peace of mind that everything is being done right, and you don't need to agonize over how.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Sounds like a good idea...

Sounds like a good idea...

I would take your FCP sequence and your R3D's to a professional post house - preferably one that specializes in file-based workflows - and have them do everything for you. That way you have the peace of mind that everything is being done right, and you don't need to agonize over how.

Its always easer to have some who knows what they are doing do the work for you, and may be lower cost in the long run...

 

[Dennis A]

I would take your FCP sequence and your R3D's to a professional post house - preferably one that specializes in file-based workflows - and have them do everything for you. That way you have the peace of mind that everything is being done right, and you don't need to agonize over how.

Very, very good point! If we can afford a 4K online to film out, we can afford to have it done properly by a professional. I'll insist to my Post Supervisor that that is the best course of action and consider this matter closed.

That said, if anyone else would still like me to run a variety of different workflows using the RED Rocket, feel free to post them and I'll do what I can to put them through their paces.

Thank you all for your advice and help. I'll try to pay back in kind by being a more regular member of this board.

dennis