FCP/red 2009

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah man. I knew someone was going to step up to the plate. Tangent's high-end controllers cost 25K and up. There's too many Final Cut Studio users in the world to not try to give them one affordable Control Surface at a great price.

That's what I'm saying, this is the 'day of the digital artist'. The tools are here now or are on the way.

Not quite 25K, more like 8K but they're worth every penny. The Wave is a gift at that price though. If you use Color or Assimilate or what have you more than once a week you should grab it and support their initiative.

Noah

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Post Workflow

Post Workflow

The current Red workflow is the old offline model. When Avid first lead the way with NLE everyone was happy to offline as full standard def quality was just unattainable with a personal computer back then. But today who still offlines standard def? Nobody. And this will soon be the case with 4K Cine files. It does take time for all the players to work out all the details and work together. Could that may mean another year or two before we have a real time workflow for Red? No. The truth is that Cineform's Prospect 4K is a realtime 4K post production workflow that is ready now and works natively with Premiere Pro CS3, After Effects, Iridas and other programs. Cineform's media converter gets 10 FPS conversion speed converting R3D to Cineform Intermediate. It maps pixel for pixel 4K Redcode to Cineform 4K Intermediate. Prospect 4k Intermediate is actually a larger data file that Redcode so you do not loose any of the quality of Redcode and it is designed to hold up for multigenerational effects editing in a real time 4K environment. THE WHOLE POINT HERE is to EDIT ONLINE in 4K. Not edit offline and then go thru a lengthy conform process. With Cineform you can add color correction as the last step, the middle step or the first step. You can change your colors anytime in real time and let your edit and your look evolve without being locked in to baked in colors. With my MacPro quadcore 3.0 I am getting about 1.5 FPS converting from Redcine to 1080 Prores. But Cineform's media converter converts at 10 FPS. Let's look at the math. Ten minutes of 23.98 footage is roughly 14400 Frames. Using Redcine to convert 14400 frames of Redcode to 1080 prores at 1.5 FPS takes about 4 hours. Using Cineform's media converter at 10 FPS 14400 frames takes about 24 minutes. Now after only 24 minutes you can edit your footage in real time and color correct in real time. Also, using an AJA xena boad you can have realtime out to an HD-SDI monitor for proper grading. Another great trick is using a 2K timeline and editing with the 4k file. You can resize in real time right on the timeline. To make this all work you need fast pc and Cineform recommends XP64. Cineform is not releasing the media converter they have working now with build 15 but is waiting instead for the SDK that will be for build 16. So in the mean time us Cineform fans have to slow render out of Redcine to Cineform Intermediate. But even given the same render time the advantages are still all to Cineform. I encourage all Red Users who want a this kind of workflow to go www.cineform.com and check it out. There is even a free trial download.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Cineforms solution is definitely very tempting. There seems to be some not so good blood between the companies, which is too bad - for whatever reason the situation is what it is.

Would very much like to A/B Cineform and DPX workflows for finishing, and the day will eventually come, but for now it's not here in any supportable way.

I am also quite curious about speedgrade, amongst a whole bunch of other sexy software screaming for my cash

 

[Mark Crabtree]

I don't think there are any problems between the companies. Build 16 and Sdk is just a Big Deal and everyone, not just Cineform, is holding off for it's release. That does not alter the fact that if you want the Cineform realtime workflow it is ready to work for you right now, just absent the fast media converter.

 

[M Most]

The current Red workflow is the old offline model. When Avid first lead the way with NLE everyone was happy to offline as full standard def quality was just unattainable with a personal computer back then. But today who still offlines standard def?

About 95% of network television programs. And at least 50-75% of motion pictures.

 

[KeithHill]

Not quite 25K, more like 8K but they're worth every penny. The Wave is a gift at that price though. If you use Color or Assimilate or what have you more than once a week you should grab it and support their initiative.

Noah

Noah,

I definitely plan to. I know you and your training crew at Callbox are going to show us how to use it effectively, right?

 

[Noah Kadner]

Noah,

I definitely plan to. I know you and your training crew at Callbox are going to show us how to use it effectively, right?

Not sure yet. If we were to do a Call Box course on RED workflow it would have to be a daily podcast subscription just to keep up...:ranting2: But we do show off Color itself.

Noah

 

[KeithHill]

Noah,

Naw, I'm not even talking about Red anything with the Controller. I was thinking just to have a training on the use of a tactile controller like Wave using Color. Going through the Color workflow to grade a timeline of a project. From FCP to Color using Wave. That sounds nice.

Maybe the Red workflow somewhere down the road once Scarlet is out.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Quote from mmost: About 95% of network television programs. And at least 50-75% of motion pictures.

mmost you are missing the point. When you are editing for standard def release you do not off line. The quality is full for standard def. The point is that with Cineform you can now edit with the same online model we all use for standard def. Edit once. It is your master.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Quote from mmost: About 95% of network television programs. And at least 50-75% of motion pictures.

mmost you are missing the point. When you are editing for standard def release you do not off line. The quality is full for standard def. The point is that with Cineform you can now edit with the same online model we all use for standard def. Edit once. It is your master.

Hm. ... balls!

 

[Noah Kadner]

Noah,

Naw, I'm not even talking about Red anything with the Controller. I was thinking just to have a training on the use of a tactile controller like Wave using Color. Going through the Color workflow to grade a timeline of a project. From FCP to Color using Wave. That sounds nice.

Maybe the Red workflow somewhere down the road once Scarlet is out.

Oh that- it's actually shockingly intuitive. Like so intuitive that once you color correct with a controller like the Tangent(assuming you already know how to use Color) you'll wonder what you were thinking ever even attempting to use a mouse and keyboard. It's like playing the best videogame ever or being a virtuoso on a piano- dope.

Noah

 

[M Most]

mmost you are missing the point. When you are editing for standard def release you do not off line. The quality is full for standard def. The point is that with Cineform you can now edit with the same online model we all use for standard def. Edit once. It is your master.

I'm not talking about standard def release. Network television dramas are all finished in HD, but offlined in SD. That WAS my point. There is little interest in changing that model for a number of reasons, some of which would be the rental model for editing equipment that is used by nearly all television and most feature productions, the need for videotape delivery in television work, the ease and efficiency of a tape based workflow for those shows, the level of high end support available from post facilities, the time factors involved in a television post schedule, and the amount of material required to be kept on line at any given point in time. In short, it works, and it works well. There is little incentive to change it, and even less incentive to go to an even more compressed format than HDCam SR, D5, or even HDCam.

Of course, this is all based on the fact that the vast majority of television dramas are shot on film. If that changes, perhaps some of this will be re-examined, but my guess is that if a show today wanted to shoot on, say, a Red, the same post workflow would likely be used, with a facility converting the R3d files to HDCam SR, synching double system sound, and using the SR tape as the daily master.

 

[David Newman]

I'm not talking about standard def release. Network television dramas are all finished in HD, but offlined in SD. That WAS my point. There is little interest in changing that model for a number of reasons, some of which would be the rental model for editing equipment that is used by nearly all television and most feature productions, the need for videotape delivery in television work, the ease and efficiency of a tape based workflow for those shows, the level of high end support available from post facilities, the time factors involved in a television post schedule, and the amount of material required to be kept on line at any given point in time. In short, it works, and it works well. There is little incentive to change it, and even less incentive to go to an even more compressed format than HDCam SR, D5, or even HDCam.

Of course, this is all based on the fact that the vast majority of television dramas are shot on film. If that changes, perhaps some of this will be re-examined, but my guess is that if a show today wanted to shoot on, say, a Red, the same post workflow would likely be used, with a facility converting the R3d files to HDCam SR, synching double system sound, and using the SR tape as the daily master.

We understand that CineForm approach is not the traditional way, our bet is this will change over time, and it certain has already for part of the market.

Note: In terms of quality, CineForm is less compressed than HDCam, D5, or HDCam SR, and there is a lot of interest in removing these expensive decks from the workflow (certainly avoiding adding more.)

 

[M Most]

We understand that CineForm approach is not the traditional way, our bet is this will change over time, and it certain has already for part of the market.

Note: In terms of quality, CineForm is less compressed than HDCam, D5, or HDCam SR, and there is a lot of interest in removing these expensive decks from the workflow (certainly avoiding adding more.)

Decks are owned and operated by facilities who don't have a particularly strong interest in either not using them or removing them. They are not used by production and are not owned by production companies.

Network television post production is handled by a small number of very sophisticated and well equipped post facilities that do their job very well under very difficult schedules and circumstances. In other words, it works. And it works very reliably and very well. Individual productions, and even studios for the most part, have very little interest in becoming post facilities, particularly when those that already exist do the work - and do it well - for less than it would cost the studios to do it themselves. And they take on the technical responsibility for meeting network delivery requirements, which are extensive, complex, and get even more so every year. Every few years individual studios dabble in creating in house post facilities, and they abandon it a short time later because they discover what I just said is true. This has happened time and time again. I'm not saying that things will never change. What I am saying is that while film is still the dominant production medium for network dramas - and it still is, and will likely be for the next few years regardless of what else comes along - it is unlikely that the current methods of doing post production will change substantially, because what's done now works quite well.

The technical requirements and extremely tight turnarounds of network television demand extremely high quality, extremely high reliability, extreme technical sophistication, and the ability to do it all very fast. That is what the post facilities bring to the table, and what individual editorial teams can't, at least not while network deliveries are still on videotape.

 

[David Newman]

The key part is "certainly avoiding adding more", we have first hand knowledge of this. Post workflows are changing.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people who actually still likes the offline/online workflow. For any sort of series or long form work it just seems easier - we have a short series that shot something like 200 tapes. We offlineed at DV25, and still ended up using nearly 2TB for that. Holding all that material at any sort of HD finishing resolution wasn't an option for us, and was unnecessary.

Also, more importantly, I think, is that not all tools are created equal, some are better suited for finishing, and others are better suited to cutting. Also, the skills are different - many of the best editors wouldn't stand a chance of finishing something for broadcast.

I also like that the offline/online workflow creates clear delineations between different parts of the process. You know the cut is locked off once it leaves offline. It can be helpful for some directors, a sort of 'closure' I guess.

 

[Cynthia Ludwig]

The key part is "certainly avoiding adding more", we have first hand knowledge of this. Post workflows are changing.

David,
Do you have the numbers of features and TV shows that have changed their workflow. My guess... .02 percent. mmost brings up a valid point. Use the constructive criticism to make the "new workflow" more desirable, stable, functional and elegant. Some of us "Standard Posties" look forward to the day when we have no doubts about online/online being the better workflow. That time is not yet.