False Color & Stop's Question-

[Ryan E. Walters]

So I've recently begun to play with False Color in determining exposure. I think that it could be a powerful and great tool once it is calibrated to the RAW view. But for now, it is what it is... With that said I have to following question in regards to the colors in False Color mode-

According to the manual-
Green = 18% grey, or base exposure.
Pink = about 0.3+ stops, or where Caucasian skin should fall.
Orange = 1+ stop over
Red = Clipped

According to the Zone system-
Zone V = 18% grey or base exposure
Zone VI = 1+ stop or where Caucasian skin should fall

As I'm trying to integrate these two systems, I can't seem to make them line up or make sense of each other. Shouldn't skin tone be listed as 1+ stop and not 0.3+ Stop? Is the 1+ stop really equal to Zone VI? Now I'm really confused ... (Maybe my problem is that I'm trying to make them both work together...)

 

[Irri]

Are you using it in raw view? I think the colour space you are viewing in will affect not only where you are placing 18% and skin tone, but also the the difference between them. I'm not sure, but I think the gamma curve in raw is similar to the one in REC709. I wouldn't place skin and 18% when viewing raw as they will change when transferred. Having said that, I agree that placing Caucasian skin 0.3 over 18% does seem a little low.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Are you using it in raw view? I think the colour space you are viewing in will affect not only where you are placing 18% and skin tone, but also the the difference between them. I'm not sure, but I think the gamma curve in raw is similar to the one in REC709. I wouldn't place skin and 18% when viewing raw as they will change when transferred. Having said that, I agree that placing Caucasian skin 0.3 over 18% does seem a little low.

Unfortunately you cannot use False Color in RAW view as it is not reading the information correctly. You can only use False Color in Rec709 and RedSpace.

But regardless of the color space used, it does seem odd to me that the False Color is broken up into 10 stops below base exposure and only 1 stop above base exposure ...

 

[Irri]

That seems like an odd distribution. I think with REC709 you get 2 stops over and 7 stops under. A lot of people had an issue when rating the camera with 18%. Redspace goes some way towards rectifying that by lifting the lower levels so that 18% is closer to the middle of the scale. Sorry if that sounds a little vague, I've had a few glasses of wine.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Yep, it is an odd distribution indeed. I get what you are saying - regardless of the glasses of wine.

I do not get the distribution either- it makes no sense to me. Especially since the distribution is the same regardless of the color space used. (I understand that the different color spaces give different results, but False color still has the same scale to work with - 10 stops under and 1 stop over exposure...)

False Color seems like it could be a very handy tool- but since it does not work with RAW view, and the distribution seems to be askew - it seems that I'll have to not bother using it, and just go back to using the histogram and the color bar...

I really wish False color would work...

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Color me up

Color me up

Allow me to join the chorus of those who look forward to a tweaking of the false color tool. BTW - I would love to see it propagated into RA, RC and Scratch as well.

FWIW my dream set up would be 10 colors that directly correlate to the Ansel Adams Zone System. From what I understand, the key is to intelligently manage the gamma issues inherent in re-mapping a linear system that starts with most of the code values all crunched together into a logical visual representation.

I know the Red Team has more than enough on their plate but, IMHO, False Color 2.0 has the potential be the gold standard for exposure tools in the entire imaging industry. Beyond that, in my experience, nailing exposure on the RedOne is the key to realizing the potential of the camera system. The better the exposure tools the more likely that is. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19

 

[David Mullen ASC]

So I've recently begun to play with False Color in determining exposure. I think that it could be a powerful and great tool once it is calibrated to the RAW view. But for now, it is what it is... With that said I have to following question in regards to the colors in False Color mode-

According to the manual-
Green = 18% grey, or base exposure.
Pink = about 0.3+ stops, or where Caucasian skin should fall.
Orange = 1+ stop over
Red = Clipped

Yes, that seems odd, skin tone being only 1/3-stop over 18% grey. Of course it all depends on whose skin tone you are talking about... And if Orange (which would be Zone VI) is one-stop over, then what is Red? Two-stops over? Three?

Perhaps, like Zebras, the user should be able to have four false color zones and then assign them to whatever exposure levels they feel would be informative. Or maybe it should be set for three-stops under 18% (for near black), 18%, one-stop over (for skin), and clip point, in Rec 709.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

FWIW my dream set up would be 10 colors that directly correlate to the Ansel Adams Zone System. From what I understand, the key is to intelligently manage the gamma issues inherent in re-mapping a linear system that starts with most of the code values all crunched together into a logical visual representation.

Yes, that seems odd, skin tone being only 1/3-stop over 18% grey. Of course it all depends on whose skin tone you are talking about... And if Orange (which would be Zone VI) is one-stop over, then what is Red? Two-stops over? Three?

Perhaps, like Zebras, the user should be able to have four false color zones and then assign them to whatever exposure levels they feel would be informative. Or maybe it should be set for three-stops under 18% (for near black), 18%, one-stop over (for skin), and clip point, in Rec 709.

Great ideas- I'm really hoping that Red does one of these or both of them- right now it seems to skewed to be of any real use. Especially since it cannot be used reliably in Raw view ... False color is a great idea, now if it could just be finished out / completed...

 

[rotten]

can somone tell me if the little column on the red lcd shows the same information of the flase color?
and, sorry about that, what does the other little column shows?

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

can somone tell me if the little column on the red lcd shows the same information of the flase color?
and, sorry about that, what does the other little column shows?

If you are referring to the column in-between the histogram and the traffic lights: It is a meter for the RAW sensor / view. When it hits red there is a part of the raw image that has been clipped. No Red = no clipping. It does not show the same information as false color, since false color is dependent on the view mode, and false color is not accurate when viewing RAW.

The traffic lights (Next column over) go off when 2% (or is it 1%) of the image is clipped. The corresponding color light shows up for the channel that is clipped. This is also based on the viewing space.

 

[anzyyy]

:emote_head_explode:hey i still cant figure out.........

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

:emote_head_explode:hey i still cant figure out.........

Figure out what? You'll need to post a better response then that to get a specific answer ...

 

[Casey Green]

I had an idea and wanted to run it by others interested...

Would it valuable to have the ability to generate custom False Color meters?
(Perhaps they could be called something else to keep confusion at a minimum)

Here's what I have in mind:

On-set, record a camera test clip (or with DSMC, a Still) and off load it to the Data Capture station. Then, in REDCINE-X (or RA!, etc.) have the ability to assign specific False Color hues to custom values pertaining to that clip or image's unique exposure. Also, you would be able to have control of which colors and values even get a color representation. For example, you could leave the entire image grey scale except for +1 stop, clipping, and perhaps -8 stops.

Then, be able to Save that custom False Color file, and upload it into the Camera.

It seems this could allow for more precise exposure monitoring. Would this be of value?

 

[JonathanF]

Perhaps, like Zebras, the user should be able to have four false color zones and then assign them to whatever exposure levels they feel would be informative. Or maybe it should be set for three-stops under 18% (for near black), 18%, one-stop over (for skin), and clip point, in Rec 709.

I'd second that.. it seems a reasonable simplification.

You generally have an idea of what range is most important so being able to user define that seems a great idea. You can make the response suitable for those areas of importance. In any case being able to map whatever user color you like to any exposure seems like just the ticket.

But this all begs the question, when is RAW actually going to get fixed so it works? Some of us aren't working in 709 or redspace and would love to meter in raw.

Cheers,

:J

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I had an idea and wanted to run it by others interested...

Would it valuable to have the ability to generate custom False Color meters?
(Perhaps they could be called something else to keep confusion at a minimum)

Here's what I have in mind:

On-set, record a camera test clip (or with DSMC, a Still) and off load it to the Data Capture station. Then, in REDCINE-X (or RA!, etc.) have the ability to assign specific False Color hues to custom values pertaining to that clip or image's unique exposure. Also, you would be able to have control of which colors and values even get a color representation. For example, you could leave the entire image grey scale except for +1 stop, clipping, and perhaps -8 stops.

Then, be able to Save that custom False Color file, and upload it into the Camera.

It seems this could allow for more precise exposure monitoring. Would this be of value?

I think that is an interesting idea, and it might work for some people. For me, however, I'd just like a False color that actually worked in RAW view, and was evenly distributed across the zone system. Even better would be one that was user definable like what has been suggested in other posts.

With a system that I would have to "print" out and then reload a specific profile for it to work would not be ideal for a lot of the smaller projects that I work on as it would be an additional step. For the larger projects, with the crew to help, it could come in handy.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'd find, though, ten false colors representing Zones to be rather a mess to look at on a screen image. If you wanted that sort of even distribution of false colors, I'd skip every other zone or something to make it less confusing to look at.

Otherwise, probably what you really want to see is Zone 1, Zone 5 (18% grey), Zone 6 (caucasian skin tone), and Zone 10.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I'd find, though, ten false colors representing Zones to be rather a mess to look at on a screen image. If you wanted that sort of even distribution of false colors, I'd skip every other zone or something to make it less confusing to look at.

Otherwise, probably what you really want to see is Zone 1, Zone 5 (18% grey), Zone 6 (caucasian skin tone), and Zone 10.

That is a good point and that might cause some issues. Right now with False Color there are about 14 or 15 colors, and with the limited experience I've had using the False Color mode it doesn't seem to be a huge issue- but then again the scale / distribution is way off so many times not all of the colors are displayed at the same time ...

 

[Kim Frank]

Otherwise, probably what you really want to see is Zone 1, Zone 5 (18% grey), Zone 6 (caucasian skin tone), and Zone 10.

I'm always using Raw view, where False Colour isn't reading appropriate at the Moment, right? That's why I'm wondering how I would have to adjust the Zebras setting, to get the same readings David suggested for false Colour.
What IRE would be perfekt for reading out the noise floor in the Blacks (where should I set it with the new colour scince) and the clipping in the highlights? I don't own a red that's why I have to ask, am I able to set midtone values for 18%grey and skin tone (zone6)?

 

[Casey Green]

I'd find, though, ten false colors representing Zones to be rather a mess to look at on a screen image. If you wanted that sort of even distribution of false colors, I'd skip every other zone or something to make it less confusing to look at.

Otherwise, probably what you really want to see is Zone 1, Zone 5 (18% grey), Zone 6 (caucasian skin tone), and Zone 10.

I agree. While very useful, False Color can be confusing to look at. I proposed something similar to this idea a while back for a "False Color 2" mode... (slightly updated version below)

I love the False Color mode, and think it is one of the best tools available on the RED, HOWEVER, it would be great to add a False Color 2 mode which only had the colors represent these modes (or something similar):

PINK = Clipped Hilights
RED = Almost clipped (set to a specific Zone or Zebra)

Grey Scale = all shades in between
Dark Orange = certain skin tones or Zone

Dark Blue = "Somewhat Under Exposed" (set to a specific Zone or Zebra)
Dark Purple = "Fully Under Exposed" (set to a specific Zone or Zebra)

Some of the other colors in the False Color mode are hard to remember and also make viewing the image confusing.

I would love a False Color 2 mode as an option.

...But customizable uploadable False Color modes for certain projects would be very helpful.

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

Agree with Casey on his points on using False Color. Anyone tried the Leader False color -http://www.leaderusa.com/whatis/cinezone.htm. Any difference? Lim