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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

False color callibration

Frank Martin

Frank Martin

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Does anyone know if the false color
Meter is callibrated for both Rec709
and Redspace. I know it's not correct with
RAW view but which one would be most accurate
Same question on the waveform on the17" panasonic
I usually use the histogram in raw mode
but some guys are very Rigid in there
thinking and there seem to be inconsistencies
between the two two color spaces( I know
Red did this to protect highlights) but what
Have you guys been doing to calm down some
of these very uptight newbies. Sometimes you
Can't say keep the histogram to the right and
no traffic lights and you'll be fine
 
As far as I know False color is callibrated only to Raw if you place the colour mode in to Rec709 or Redspace you will notace it changes. for looking at what actualy is peeking you need to be in raw. when your in a colour space it will seem to peek sooner this i can only guess if your filming strait for look and dont plan to grade that much in post and there for need to protect the highlights in the LUT.

From my experance it best to to expose slightly brighter for dark/low light shots, if you want to preview what it might look like once darkend down just lower the ASA/ISO this way you get better blacks. just keep an eye on the blue channle once you get it back to your DIT station.

It best to set up a Raw/redspace button and a false colour button and flip to raw before looking in false colour to check on what your actully loosing.

The same goes with the histogram it reflects what colour space your in you need to be in raw to see what is being lost.

at the end of the day you want to expose for you look as closly as possible in darker shots or shot where everything is on the left you want to expose it more and pull it down in post or change to a lower ASA meta data(only previewed in colour mode RAW is always 320) just so that you can get cleaner blacks and have the flexability to change the exposure a bit in post. just make sure you check your raw for exposure it will then bee peeking first in raw with lower ASA/ISO's

If i'm wrong i'm sure some one will kindly correct me.
 
False color is not callibrated to RAW
That much I found in earlier posts
I see a difference between rec709 and redspace
so I would love to know when false color is accurate
 
We had that discussion in another thread before. There seems to be no definite answer to this. I think Histograms and False Color should be RAW only, gives you the security you need. But they aren´t.

Frank
 
dpfmartin said:
False color is not callibrated to RAW
That much I found in earlier posts
I see a difference between rec709 and redspace
so I would love to know when false color is accurate
Click to expand...

I think you answered your own question - false colour is not accurate in RAW but it is accurate in Rec709 and RedSpace. I think the only accurate tools in RAW are the histogram and the rainbow/colour bar. I'm sure Red will correct this if I'm incorrect.
 
David Wyatt said:
I think you answered your own question - false colour is not accurate in RAW but it is accurate in Rec709 and RedSpace. I think the only accurate tools in RAW are the histogram and the rainbow/colour bar. I'm sure Red will correct this if I'm incorrect.
Click to expand...

No, that's not what he says. With the Histogram (at least to my understanding), it is always monitoring the RAW view no matter if you are in RAW/709/REDSPACE. But with False Color, it seems to be monitoring the colorspace you are in. So, if you are in REDSPACE, FC is looking at the data post gamma curve. The problem with that is, if you use FC like I do, you will underexpose because FC will tell you that something is clipping when in reality it's not. So if you trust FC, there is a good chance that your exposure will be under what it really should have been and your footage will be nosier than it needs to be.

I really wish RED would fix this because it will help use expose better and get even cleaner looking footage.

Matthew
 
I believe it was concluded in an earlier thread that the Histogram is NOT monitoring RAW all the time, but whatever color space you're viewing in. Many people appear confused by this, as I was.

Cheers,
 
this was talked about by Stuart English and Dylan Macleod,CSC
FALSE COLOR IS NOT ACCURATE WHEN VIEW = RAW
Histogram works with Raw and the false color works when a color space is applied
I just wondered is it callibrated to REC709 or REDSPACE
 
I think false color is just monitoring whatever colorspace you are in.

Whatever the case is, RED needs to write what's actually happening in the manual so we are not confused. Ideally, both the Histogram and False Color should always monitor the RAW view so we know how to accurately expose.

Matthew
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I think false color is just monitoring whatever colorspace you are in.

Whatever the case is, RED needs to write what's actually happening in the manual so we are not confused. Ideally, both the Histogram and False Color should always monitor the RAW view so we know how to accurately expose.

Matthew
Click to expand...
Exactly what I´m saying. We need something reliable here and that´s when every "meter" shows the actual RAW or if at least we can decide ourselves what is being shown.

Frank
 
agreed matthew i would think anything that has to do with metering should be calibrated to the raw histogram no matter what color-space you are in. If you underexpose by one stop you subsequently lose half of your capacity of the sensor so this really matters
 
Matthew Rogers said:
No, that's not what he says. With the Histogram (at least to my understanding), it is always monitoring the RAW view no matter if you are in RAW/709/REDSPACE.
Matthew
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case (unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean) - i.e. the histogram isn't always monitoring RAW no matter what colour space you've selected. The rainbow/colour bar exposure tool on the other hand is always monitoring RAW in my understanding.
 
It would be great if there was a statement from RED on this to clear things up. If there is one and I'm not seeing it - my bad.
 
i also prefer looking at REC709 to REDSpace for the same reasons.

i also wish that False Color was locked to the RAW image, or at least could be used to accurately meter RAW when in VIEW=RAW mode.

what i wish more than anything is that the camera output a signal similar to what i see in red alert or redcine when i have the color space set to camera RGB and the output lut to REC709.
 
Yeah, I normally do REC709 with the Saturation turned up to 1.3. It's a fairly nice image, although it normally looks a little green compared to REDSPACE. I will do a test here in a few minutes with RAW vs REC709 vs REDSPACE when it comes to the histogram.

Matthew
 
I just tested the different colorspaces when it comes to the histogram and false color. I am sorry to say that both of them are tied to the colorspace. Now, I didn't see a difference in the monitors to the right of the histogram, (both the first one which I don't know what it is and the channel clipping), but of course I didn't have a subject that was close to clipping.

RED, this really really needs to be fixed-or at least give us the option to monitor the histogram and FC either in the current colorspace or off the raw image colorspace. I even tried turning up the saturation while in RAW colorspace, but that doesn't affect the image (which is probably good considering that it's the RAW.)

Anyone at RED listing?

Matthew
 
We never really noticed the difference when we were shooting scenes that were not very challenging, (night interior, wide ext. daylight, ) it becomes very apparent when you make it tough, stone grey floors, white wall with beam projector sun beams and blown out windows and our girl sitting in the dreaded hanging"clear acrylic egg chair" and to finish she is wearing black. We did fine protecting the" white ceiling "no traffic lights with a full rainbow. The hard part was the models skin tone. It would have been the perfect time for false color if i could learn to trust it.
The differences between the RAW image Histogram and the REC709 or REDSPACE with false color were all different
the histograms are all different when you change colorspace and the waveform on the panasonic 17" jumps as well.
From the beginning we have been lighting by the RAW histogram/rainbow/traffic lights and then using user key to give the director/client a "look" and we have had great successes on many commercials, videos and one feature shot on our cameras. All lit off the raw histogram. so now how do i align black,middle gray,white on RAW histogram to
match the same with false color with a color space applied
any help would be greatly appreciated.
frank martin
 
dpfmartin said:
Does anyone know if the false color
Meter is callibrated for both Rec709
and Redspace. I know it's not correct with
RAW view but which one would be most accurate
Same question on the waveform on the17" panasonic
I usually use the histogram in raw mode
but some guys are very Rigid in there
thinking and there seem to be inconsistencies
between the two two color spaces( I know
Red did this to protect highlights) but what
Have you guys been doing to calm down some
of these very uptight newbies. Sometimes you
Can't say keep the histogram to the right and
no traffic lights and you'll be fine
Click to expand...

Hey dpmartin

I think everything is answered in the Escher like thread;

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21635&highlight=view=raw

The short answer to your question is; yes False color is calibrated for REC709 and REDSPACE. However it is not calibrated for RAW. The feeling Stuart has is that it is not out far enough to worry about.

Some Stuart quotes;
"But its not calibrated to the RAW data, its still working with REDspace or REC709 values.

So to recap, you can use the histogram to judge exposure when viewing RAW, but be careful with False Color. Its not accurate."

and

"Well to avoid going round in circles on this, lets just say this then - NO, its not calibrated, and YES I agree it should be.

Meanwhile its accurate enough that you probably haven't had any footage come back from post because of clipping."

The RGB parade is the only accurate "all the time" RAW evaluation tool.

Hope that helps.

I'm dizzy.
 
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