Fair Game w/ Rabbit Hole trailer

[David Mullen ASC]

Saw "Fair Game" today, digitally projected, along with the "Rabbit Hole" trailer. I didn't know either was shot on the Red One until I got home and checked, but when the "Rabbit Hole" trailer came up, I thought "Wow, this is very clean-looking, and sharp -- but the colors seem to emphasize the cyan-blues and magenta/browns like most Red movies I've seen." Then "Fair Game" started and again, I thought that it looked really sharp, except for the missed-focus shots, but had that slightly desaturated blue-cyan mixed with magenta-brown faces look.

I'm guessing that both movies were shot with the older sensor. Don't get me wrong, they looked great, and the dynamic range seemed fine, but I'm trying to figure out whether the distinctive color range is just inherent to single Bayer-filtered CMOS sensors (I see the same look from Phantom and D21 footage sometimes) or if it's just the look of older builds, the older sensor, etc.

You'd think that if what I'm noticing most are cyanish blues and magenta-browns, then what's "missing" -- enough yellow? Green (seems like there is always plenty of green with digital cameras)? Purple? Is it just the range of subtleties in fleshtones that are missing, those "underneath" colors, the blues and reds under the skin? I can't put my finger on it. Certainly I've seen D.I.'s of movies shot on film with limited color -- the prints of "Hereafter" are fairly desaturated, as are most of Eastwood's movies -- but there are few really saturated Red One movies to recall, other than parts of "Knowing" and some night club scenes in "The Social Network".

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

I also saw "Fair Game" recently and definitely noticed the "RED look" -- a slight cyan or magenta cast in the shadows and something missing in the skin tones. I know that it had a pretty limited budget considering the talent and some of their locations, so I doubt that they spent that much on post.

Also, very good movie. Great performances by Sean Penn and Naomi Watts, and a pretty good script as well. Cinematography was good although it takes a few minutes to get used to the handheld style. Shot mostly on RED with a few shots on 5Dmk2. It is also VERY true to life, Penn actually lived with Wilson and Plame to get into character, and the scenes involving white house officials were based on court transcripts.

 

[Paul Leeming]

David, you have worlds more experience than I, but I wonder if this look you're describing isn't a subtler variant of the "teal & orange" colour grading so favoured in Hollywood right now (I like to call it the "new black & white")?

Seems everyone is pushing that colour palette right now at various saturation/hue levels, to the point where natural looking footage is becoming the exception rather than the norm.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that "Rabbit Hole" is indeed shot on the older M sensor. "Fair Game" I'm not sure about but I think it was OffHollywood's cameras so maybe Mark can chime in?

As always, thanks for your wisdom on the forum!

Cheers from Japan,

Paul

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

David,

as I mentioned in my recent tread "2011 RED Predictions" after getting out Epic/Scarlet cameras the third is:

"3. New Color Science.

For my point of view the color is the most important thing at one digital camera system even more than the resolution.

Hopefully RED will continue to improve NCS with "mismatching greens in Bayer filtration", finding always better algorithm to "spin" RGB

in a right direction that we can get best quality of image color possible."


I do have almost all published DVD/BuRay movies shot on RED and together with my "quick and dirty M and MX tests" analyzing color of RED daily.

Also I wish that RED with New Color Science can reach next year something closer to the Panasonic's or even better Olympus digital color matrix.

 

[M Most]

S
You'd think that if what I'm noticing most are cyanish blues and magenta-browns, then what's "missing" -- enough yellow? Green (seems like there is always plenty of green with digital cameras)? Purple? Is it just the range of subtleties in fleshtones that are missing, those "underneath" colors, the blues and reds under the skin? I can't put my finger on it. Certainly I've seen D.I.'s of movies shot on film with limited color -- the prints of "Hereafter" are fairly desaturated, as are most of Eastwood's movies -- but there are few really saturated Red One movies to recall, other than parts of "Knowing" and some night club scenes in "The Social Network".

This is often the result if two things are used: the original color matrices (i.e., everything before RedColor) and a film targeted post path. Since Red has never really had a color matrix that was tuned to a film color space, pushing the images through a film path almost always results in the image characteristics you mention. The best way around this has been and remains going through a gamma encoded path, using either P3 (preferred) or Rec709 as the viewing color space, and employing the use of a well designed inverse LUT that constrains the color gamut to produce the film deliverables. Of course, to this point, that is not the normal operating procedure for most studio pictures that are intended for film distribution as the primary deliverable. That situation is changing though, even at some of the larger DI facilties, for digitally shot pictures.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Saw "Fair Game" today, digitally projected, along with the "Rabbit Hole" trailer.

David - both films were graded with film emulation LUTs and the director/DPs of both films were VERY active in the creative choices during the grading.

I'll list out some basic technical notes - as both films were shot with our cameras and color graded at OFFHOLLYWOOD.

Both films were shot with original M sensor in 4K - Redcode 36.

Fair Game was shot on Master Primes - with the exception of everything done outside of the US - Egypt, Jordan, Malaysia & Iraq was all shot with a set of Super Speeds.

Doug Liman, the director, was also the operator and cinematographer. Doug was the cinematographer on his earlier films, Swingers and Go as well.

Rabbit Hole was shot on a set of Standard Speeds owned by the cinematographer of that film, the very talented Frank G. DeMarco.

Both films were color graded at OFFHOLLYWOOD in Assimilate's SCRATCH directly from the R3D files on a system we helped spec with JMR - in P3 projecting 2K with full (4K) debayer on a Barco DP2000 using a film emulation luts.

The JMR system is now called the BlueStor DigiLab w/ expansion chasis - our system runs TWO Red Rocket cards, Lynx audio card, 48T of internal storage and a Dual 8G Fibre card for SAN and point to point file copies. The system is amazing and we are realtime in 3D from R3Ds with full 4K debayer on both dual stream (left & right eyes).

Milan Boncich was the colorist who graded Fair Game and Robbie Renfrow was the colorist on Rabbit Hole.

Both films were digital mastered (DCP & DCDM) at OFFHOLLYWOOD.
Fair Game was recorded out to film at FotoKem in LA on Fuji Stock.
Rabbit Hole was recorded out to film at Technicolor in NY on Fuji Stock.

I hope everyone goes to see these films - I think they look great and both have solid Oscar buzz for the performances.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

They DID look great -- but if you played them at high-speed, don't you think you'd notice a certain overall "Red" color palette? It's pretty subtle, I agree, but it's there. I was wondering if the new M-X sensor has allowed any improvements in that regards, or is this mostly a post issue, or is it an inherent look for these sorts of sensors (for example, I rarely see Genesis-shot movies with this sort of color bias, they have other distinctive traits.)

Maybe it's just an issue of improving color science over the years, since the earlier Red movies had this look to this color but it seems more subtle now.

 

[Deanan]

I've seen parts of the movie in various formats (dci, film, etc) and the color looks to like a colorist choice rather than inherent in the M sensor or in the film transfer or emulation.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

They DID look great -- but if you played them at high-speed, don't you think you'd notice a certain overall "Red" color palette? It's pretty subtle, I agree, but it's there. I was wondering if the new M-X sensor has allowed any improvements in that regards, or is this mostly a post issue, or is it an inherent look for these sorts of sensors (for example, I rarely see Genesis-shot movies with this sort of color bias, they have other distinctive traits.)

Maybe it's just an issue of improving color science over the years, since the earlier Red movies had this look to this color but it seems more subtle now.

Well ... I just know both of these films had creative color palette's applied - Fair Game is much more desaturated that Rabbit Hole, etc. - but yes - it is my been my experience to see better (more natural) skin tones in MX footage.

I'll ask both of my colorists for their thoughts. They have graded tons of M and MX footage.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The lower noise on M-X does have knock-on benefits to colorimetry. The B30 colour science also helps for both M and M-X, especially using REDColor over using cameraRGB.

Graeme

 

[M Most]

David - both films were graded with film emulation LUTs and the director/DPs of both films were VERY active in the creative choices during the grading..

Mark, could you clarify this a bit? Do you mean they were converted to a log format and graded through a LUT that expects to see a Cineon Log image (what I referred to above as a film targeted post path), or do you mean they were put through using 2.6 gamma, kept in gamma encoded (i.e., non-log) space and graded or checked through a constraining LUT, followed by an inverse LUT to derive files appropriate for the film recorder? Or (choice #3) were they then rendered as P3 corrected, 2.6 gamma images that were then put through an inverse LUT process by the printing lab? Just curious....

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, could you clarify this a bit? Do you mean they were converted to a log format and graded through a LUT that expects to see a Cineon Log image (what I referred to above as a film targeted post path), or do you mean they were put through using 2.6 gamma, kept in gamma encoded (i.e., non-log) space and graded or checked through a constraining LUT, followed by an inverse LUT to derive files appropriate for the film recorder? Or (choice #3) were they then rendered as P3 corrected, 2.6 gamma images that were then put through an inverse LUT process by the printing lab? Just curious....

Fair Game was choice #3

Rabbit Hole was choice #2

I'm a fan of #3 if the wet lab of choice knows how to nail it. Some can, some can't.

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

Fair Game was choice #3

Rabbit Hole was choice #2

I'm a fan of #3 if the wet lab of choice knows how to nail it. Some can, some can't.

Mark, not to imply anything, why was #1 not chosen for either filmout facilities or do you use #1. Of course #3 is preferred but as you said, I do not think, so far, our facilities here can do that. Lim

 

[M Most]

Fair Game was choice #3

Rabbit Hole was choice #2

I'm a fan of #3 if the wet lab of choice knows how to nail it. Some can, some can't.

As am I. But then again, you already knew that... :wink5:

 

[Corey Steer]

I would love for someone to elaborate more on the possible/actual workflow for these projects?

How was the P3 path managed?, were the R3D files graded directly (using what settings?)?, or were they transferred off to DPX/CIN etc into P3 2.6?

Any deep technical info and knowledge would be great to help my brain wrap around this seemingly new and improved process.

Although as Deanan and Graeme have both commented, if you're shooting on B30 now this 'cast' should be only a result of choice as opposed to any technical limitation of the system.

Cheers,
Corey

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I think what we see in films is that the type of film that chooses Red (lower budget, more risky) like a certain look in their color grade.

Almost all music videos with more than a minimum budget and many commercials are shot on Red now, and you see through these that natural, vivid color can be done well via Red - the "typical Red look" is really just an indy film look, sometimes, in my opinion, trying to hard to look "real'. Indy films shot on film, in the past two years, I find often have that same tint as well, although less often. Maybe raw encourages people to push things too far in post, or be more liberal with what they do.

Do you find the same problem with Underocovers? - albeit it was shot on MX, and maybe I have a less discerning eye than you - but I see none of that look on that show. In fact, that show has really helped us sell using Red to our clients.

 

[Andrew Wilding]

I think some of it comes from the higher noise on the old builds under tungsten light. The warmer you WB your footage, the further down your bringing the blue channel, which was noisy. But, maybe you don't want an overall warm look. So you push the shadows blue. When you do this, you get slightly crunchier, blotchy shadows and cleaner mids and highlights. Where the two join can seem strange looking to my eye. I think that is more or less what we recognize as the "Red look" that isnt always desirable. Some people embraced the warmer look, like El Secreto De Sus Ojos, and I thought it really paid off. Gorgeous, clean, and natural looking. And warm. With the new sensor I think well see people less inclined to WB warmer than they wish and subsequently fight the warmth theyve created. If you want a cool look, you can pull it off easily and noislessly now.

Oh, and the other look that I associate with the old sensor - WB it warm to fight noise, then bringing down saturation to about .7 or even lower to get the skin tones sitting normally. This resulted, of course, in a rather gray picture overall. With a lack of testing that is common on lower budget things, people didn't realize they had to compensate with brighter sets and costumes. Thus, the desaturated look that marked alot of early red stuff. I actually prefer colors a little washed out though, so this never bothered me as much as the teal and orange look. Now of course you can use secondaries to desaturate the skin tones and leave the sets and costumes untouched, but this requires a talented colorist to avoid an steppy, blotchy, overworked look. Most indies cant afford an awesomely talented colorist to work miracles. And plenty of big budget things are plagued with this look, despite the cash they throw at it.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Sorry to revive a month-old thread ... just saw Fair Game, and I'm no DP but I also noticed that the color looked a little strange -- but then hearing David use the term "desaturated" that's exactly what it was. Doesn't mean it's a mistake, I'm sure there was a reason for that.

And I thought overall the movie felt very filmic and slightly dated (intentionally) -- almost like they were going for a slightly vintage or aged look.

Overall it was a fantastic movie -- great job all around. Congrats Mark! Really blown away by all that you're doing.

David, like you I did notice a couple missed focus points, but I noticed that on Social Network as well. Overall, I would say I enjoyed how they moved the camera and how certain parts were handheld. It gave it a more realistic feel in my opinion.

Overall, with all that's happening with Epic, color science, data, post and everything else the team is doing -- I'm unbelievably excited with what I think we'll see on future Red films ......

 

[gbalaji]

Mark - Since DIT is also from OFFHOLLYWOOD, I would like to know why the film was opted with Digital Cinema Camera when the film(I don't have anything against RED for this) has lots of pans and close-up movements which I feel little bit disturbance in overall image.

I may be wrong but I am also seeing it in my film, which we are using MX Sensor.

Even reported it to Graeme and entire Red team with my footage being sent to RED for evaluation and Graeme recommendation is to maintain 180 shutter angle irrespective of lighting conditions and use ND filters but I see same disturbance in panning shots especially even with 180 degree shutter.

Even I am seeing the same disturbance over the image in Panning and close-up movements in both RED ONE MX & Arri Alexa. I don't have clear answer from both companies on how get film like panning shots with Digital Cinema Cameras especially Red & Alexa.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The issue with motion judder is that 24fps looks that way, be it film or digital. The other aspect of judder is contrast on edges between foreground and background, so how shots are graded and lit can effect judder perception. Edge contrast is also effected by DOF, so having a shallow DOF with out of focus background can also help reduce the perception of judder. All of the above will reduce judder appearance, but if you go beyond the recommended film 24fps pan speeds or motion-in-frame speed recommendations, you'll get judder.

Graeme