F5/55

[Manfred Baulig]

Reading these posts, it seem the list of reasons to stick with red are growing forever shorter.

Dont know what you mean, but have fun buying the additional recorder and paid updates
Also there is an easy workflow for R3Ds---who knows how the workflow for Sonys 4K RAW works.

 

[Dustin Cross]

It comes with a NEW USB SxS reader! WTF! The biggest problem with SxS is there are NO good readers! Sony makes a new camera that wants bigger and faster SxS cards and the make a NEW USB SxS reader. WTF!!!!!


Dusty

 

[Andrae Palmer]

It comes with a NEW USB SxS reader! WTF! The biggest problem with SxS is there are NO good readers! Sony makes a new camera that wants bigger and faster SxS cards and the make a NEW USB SxS reader. WTF!!!!!


Dusty

USB 3.0

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

My initial reactions are:

They should admit the F65 is DOA instead of calling it the "flagship" of the line. Clearly, the F55 is the flagship camera of their 4K lineup and no rental house is going to buy new F65s as opposed to F55. Sony will most likely "force" adoption of the remaining F65 stock by making a few deals with key rental houses - buy X number of F55s and we will throw in a couple F65s, etc.

1080p acquisition for cinema and high end episodic television is going to die a quick death in 2013. The ALEXA stranglehold on episodic television is about to be disrupted. This is a good thing - as it gets folks to open their minds - and TEST instead of choosing a camera "because everyone else uses it". It amazes me how defensive and passionate people are about the tools they use without even testing alternatives.

IMO the Meizler Module is MUCH more important to the success of EPIC than the Dragon sensor. And while a price reduction will certainly help sell more cameras - Meizler Module really makes the EPIC system a different camera. It's not just proxy recording - it's a bunch of other meta-data workflow feature advantages RED isn't even talking about yet.

Studios and networks realizing that they need 4K+ digital negative - and that there isn't just one choice of a camera system to acquire in 4K is good thing. Sony has a lot of muscle - and they have the ability to mandate productions using specific camera systems - that is exactly what happened with JERSEY GIRL - which was mandated to shoot F65 (and cancelled after only two episodes aired).

This industry has always been filled with "preservationists". People have made movies the same way for DECADES. Most decision makers in the biz avoid risk as they don't want their jobs as there is always a long line of folks who will cut off a leg just to work in the business of show-business. So ... perception of a camera system is actually more powerful than price or features. The perception of RED's camera system has suffered for many reasons IMO, some could be avoided or changed - some - are just a result of being a disruptive, rebel start-up.

Personally, I would love to see every showrunner in the business testing the F55 and also EPIC + Meizler Module in early Q1 of next year.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Good to see the legend that is Mark L Pederson active, and of course, he's right!

 

[Andrae Palmer]

IMO the Meizler Module is MUCH more important to the success of EPIC than the Dragon sensor. And while a price reduction will certainly help sell more cameras - Meizler Module really makes the EPIC system a different camera. It's not just proxy recording - it's a bunch of other meta-data workflow feature advantages RED isn't even talking about yet.

I agree with you regarding the Meizler module and some of your other points.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I agree with you regarding the Meizler module and some of your other points.

I think Jim / Jarred should NOT pass all the price reduction to the EPIC brain. Split the difference EPIC brain and Meizler Module. The more Meizler Modules out there working - the faster EPIC gains further traction - the more brains they will sell. Meizler is a steal IMO at $13K - given all of it's features - but if RED has wiggle room on pricing - IMO they should lower EPIC less than they plan - and lower the Meizler Module a bit more. OR ... offer a price reduced bundle - new EPIC + Meizler Module bundle for XXX$$ - just thinking out loud here.

 

[Greg M]

I think Jim / Jarred should NOT pass all the price reduction to the EPIC brain. Split the difference EPIC brain and Meizler Module. The more Meizler Modules out there working - the faster EPIC gains further traction - the more brains they will sell. Meizler is a steal IMO at $13K - given all of it's features - but if RED has wiggle room on pricing - IMO they should lower EPIC less than they plan - and lower the Meizler Module a bit more. OR ... offer a price reduced bundle - new EPIC + Meizler Module bundle for XXX$$ - just thinking out loud here.

I agree 100% with this. The Meizler is a critical missing link in the Epics long term success.

 

[Ken Willinger]

Agreed Mark! Good observation.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I think Jim / Jarred should NOT pass all the price reduction to the EPIC brain. Split the difference EPIC brain and Meizler Module. The more Meizler Modules out there working - the faster EPIC gains further traction - the more brains they will sell. Meizler is a steal IMO at $13K - given all of it's features - but if RED has wiggle room on pricing - IMO they should lower EPIC less than they plan - and lower the Meizler Module a bit more. OR ... offer a price reduced bundle - new EPIC + Meizler Module bundle for XXX$$ - just thinking out loud here.

Yes... though I don't think the Meizler is the ultimate answer, as it doesn't record off-speed.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Yes... though I don't think the Meizler is the ultimate answer, as it doesn't record off-speed.

It takes two seconds to play the slow mo shot back to the recorder. You can even adjust color again - and instantly re-record the clip.

 

[JD Holloway]

Absolutely, the Meizler Module makes Epic a serious production tool. Without it, Epic is seriously wanting for many people.
The 2 should really be packaged together. Hell, the Pro IO (semi pro?) should have been ready at launch IMHO.

Sony products make great pictures in the right hands. I hate their business model, lies and misdirection. But I work with their kit all the time.
It delivers. I don't own any of their kit, I might never. But I might own this kit because, frankly, I like it and the post departments I'm forced to use
will want a camera that says Cinealta...

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Optional shoulder rig

Sony consulted closely with cinematographers on the ergonomics of handheld and shoulder-mounted shooting. One result was the optional Sony shoulder rig, which provides comfortable handheld operation hour after hour. The rig is sturdy, lightweight and features industry-standard rosettes on both sides for quick and easy attachment of third-party hand grips and other accessories.





And this what Red is lacking. Trying to figure out what a cinematographer really needs in terms of ergonomics. Unfortunatly it seems like the Meizler module breakes compatability with the THE CLUTCH, making the Epic less ergonomic? I know many who use the Alexa "just" because it's a really nice shoulder camera. And it seems like Sony has realised this. Good job.

 

[paul schefz]

EOSHD lists the F55 body at 25k...bloom at 50K? big difference....the biggest problem for red to me is that the meizler just looks completely overpriced right now....

canon? c100,c300,c500,d1x? all look horribly overpriced all of a sudden....

the F55 isn't coming out for another 4 months, could mean 6months.....until then we should see some dragon stuff....

as a package, the sonys look hard to beat!

 

[Tony Augustinack]

I think Jim / Jarred should NOT pass all the price reduction to the EPIC brain. Split the difference EPIC brain and Meizler Module. The more Meizler Modules out there working - the faster EPIC gains further traction - the more brains they will sell. Meizler is a steal IMO at $13K - given all of it's features - but if RED has wiggle room on pricing - IMO they should lower EPIC less than they plan - and lower the Meizler Module a bit more. OR ... offer a price reduced bundle - new EPIC + Meizler Module bundle for XXX$$ - just thinking out loud here.

I couldn't agree more, this would be huge for EPIC.

 

[Mark K.]

Why are so many people freaking out about new cameras? New cameras (even ones with better image quality) are never going to make the gorgeous footage you're already getting from your current cameras - any less gorgeous.

They're just tools, and one offering more than the other doesn't 'destroy' the other company, or even threaten your manhood in any way.

They're cameras. They make pictures. And since about 2010 they've made pictures so good that film is seeing itself rapidly wound up as an acquisition format. So stop stressing, we're already at the point of diminishing returns with image quality for these cameras - so if you can't make good enough pictures with the camera you already have, you've got greater problems than the march of technology.

I for one am delighted by the competition - it's only making things better for all of us (regardless of which brand we buy into).

Here's hoping Red can answer with a global shutter for Dragon, and a lightweight and simple ProRes/DNxHD module.

I've said it once, I'll say it again - it's a bloody exciting time to be making motion pictures for a living!

 

[Andreas Mendritzki]

I think Jim / Jarred should NOT pass all the price reduction to the EPIC brain. Split the difference EPIC brain and Meizler Module. The more Meizler Modules out there working - the faster EPIC gains further traction - the more brains they will sell. Meizler is a steal IMO at $13K - given all of it's features - but if RED has wiggle room on pricing - IMO they should lower EPIC less than they plan - and lower the Meizler Module a bit more. OR ... offer a price reduced bundle - new EPIC + Meizler Module bundle for XXX$$ - just thinking out loud here.

+1. Maybe worth posting this sage idea in the Meizler thread Mark, as I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets shut down sooner or later.

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

I'm all in for splitting up the price decrease accross multiple accesories instead of doing it just on the brain. If so , we can all see the benefits of it,
+1 on lowering the price on the dragon upgrade to let's say 4K and the meizler being around 10K. would be nice if red could have produced cheaper lense motors, and offer a package deal including 2 pr 3 motors and the 3ality remote.

lowering the price too much on epic just doesn' t make to much sense to me , at least it proves that red is constantly trying to deal with current situations at any given time, but again , would love to see the deal spread accross seperate items.
If you're looking at the competition the only advantage canon and sony might have , is being able to spit out a 4k signal to a monitor, that might become a real benefit in the near future when mutliple 4k displays arrive

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

... And in 3/4 years time when they develop a new sensor, you'll be able to buy an entirely new Sony camera all over again.

#RedUpgradesFTW

Yeah but if you're an F5 owner vs a scarlet owner you could probably sell your F5 for $10k and buy the new $15k F6, get a new warranty and brand new camera as opposed to paying $10k or whatever the Scarlet upgrade costs. Would save you money to sell and rebuy. But maybe RED has an Epic up their sleeve for Thursday for Scarlet customers.

 

[M Most]

Studios and networks realizing that they need 4K+ digital negative - and that there isn't just one choice of a camera system to acquire in 4K is good thing. Sony has a lot of muscle - and they have the ability to mandate productions using specific camera systems - that is exactly what happened with JERSEY GIRL - which was mandated to shoot F65 (and cancelled after only two episodes aired).

The show you're referring to was called "Made In Jersey" (Jersey Girl was a very bad Kevin Smith movie........) and is a show I happen to know a good deal about :closed eyes:.

The use of the F65 on that show was not "mandated", although it was "strongly suggested." The final choice was made by the cinematographer after some extensive testing. It was left up to him as to whether to go with the F65 or an Alexa. What Sony was pushing was shooting the F65 and using the SStP format to record HD files, but after some testing it was determined that there was a bit more range in the RAW recordings, so the show was set up to record using the Raw Lite codec (about the same data rate as Epic 5:1). We came up with a post path to allow for the HD finish and delivery now, followed by a possible 4K reconfirm and finish later. The 4K versions will, of course, never be made due to the show's cancellation. But it should be said that the use of Alexa was still on the table right up to the day hair and makeup tests were done.