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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Exploring Scarlet Alternatives

Exploring Scarlet Alternatives

  • Panasonic HPX170 w/ Letus adapter (rent glass)

    Votes: 2 11.8%

  • Sony EX3 (stock)

    Votes: 2 11.8%

  • HPX170 (action/ fast cam movements) and 7D (slower movement/talking head stuff)

    Votes: 5 29.4%

  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 8 47.1%
  • Total voters
    17
R

Rick Presas

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I've asked a similar question on this forum before, but things have changed a little.

I'm shooting a feature-length micro budget film in July. Our budget for a camera is right around $10,000. I'm shooting on a DVX these days, and since an upgrade is in order anyway, i figure that is the perfect time to do it by.

Ideally, I'd be using the Scarlet 2/3" for the shoot. In the unlikely even that the Scarlet is NOT released by that time, well then i need to explore some other options.

Here are some ideas i had. other suggestions are welcome.


Please note - I'm not interested in renting.
 
On the HPX/7D option - A friend of mine already has a 7D which he would lend me for free. How well would footage from the 2 cameras match up (both shooting in 1080/24p)?
 
I just shot a picture with the 7D only.

It worked out fine. A huge deal is made of the rolling shutter issue- but if you treat this thing like a film camera you'll be fine most of the time.

Of greater concern was the moire patterns you sometimes get on fine details. Shallow DoF solved that. I don't have any production samples available.

I recorded second system sound on a Zoom H4N recorder. The sound was great, but I am just about to start working on syncing it up, as we had no dedicated ingest personnel.

You can see some framegrabs now here:

http://www.starshippolaris.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216810&postcount=71

and here:

http://www.starshippolaris.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216815&postcount=76

Right now its the camera I'd buy for any pre-Scarlett work.

Scarlet will change that picture dramatically of course- then again we'll see how long it is before I can buy one and enough accessories to make a functional camera.

The huge exception is work that will feature lots of crazy fast camera motion. If you are going digital, then you need a CCD based camera for that sort of thing. I'd pick an HPX500 or an HPX170, with my preference being for the HPX500, and its 2/3" CCD.

I do that sort of whip panning and fast action tracking so rarely I can accept CMOS imagers and quite a bit of rolling shutter before its a problem.

YMMV.

So, go for the 7D. If you have a lot of cash burning a hole in your pocket, then look at a 1Dmk4. If you are buying later, then the 5Dmk2 should have a firmware update that will play at proper framerates, like 23.976p.

Next year is going to be very exciting for camera tech.
 
Rick Presas said:
On the HPX/7D option - A friend of mine already has a 7D which he would lend me for free. How well would footage from the 2 cameras match up (both shooting in 1080/24p)?
Click to expand...

Uhm... the colorimetry should be in shouting distance if you set up and shoot intelligently- but it will never exactly match. The HPX has more color data.

The 7D's look kicks the arse of most video camera's under $10000 USD. It looks fantastic.

If Canon builds an actual video camera around a similar sensor the market will really change.

As far as matching the look, the 7D is really in another league.
 
I own a 7D and compare it to RED footage a lot since I shoot R1 a lot. I think the 7D makes for a fantastic B-camera to RED footage, and for 1700 for the body, you cant go wrong. If you have 10k sitting around, I'd suggest buying a kit that you can keep for your Scarlet - so buy really nice lenses (Canon L series), maybe a rod system with rods that will fit on the Scarlet, a monitor, etc. Anything that you could see yourself using on a Scarlet and can use with 7D is a great purchase. I'd advise against buying any small-sensor camcorder for $3000+, since its value will go down the tubes in no time.

Also, the 7D is a great stills camera - so two birds with one stone there.
 
5d2 sure.. what else?
 
I am not a fan of the 5Dmk2 for production right now.

The 5D doesn't shoot proper frame rates. For example it actually shoots 30p, not 29.97. It also doesn't shoot any flavor of 24p.

When the new 5D firmware ships then you can probably shift all your work to the 5D which is frankly a nicer camera.
 
twixtor works fine
 
I own the 7D and I really like it, but you do have to spend some time understanding the limitations of rolling shutter and the jello shots. For fast motion in either direction, it's just not going to happen. Borrowing one and using it is the only way you are going to see if it is going to work for you. I am working around it.

The Moire/Aliasing problem can be pretty bad. If you want a huge DoF for certain shots, especially in urban environments with lots of buildings and lines, I get them VERY easily in 1080p @ 1/50 exposure. (24). As mentioned, if you shoot with a shallower DoF then you can avoid this problem, or shoot with lens that are not as sharp.

I plan on trying out the caprock 2.0 anti-moire filter as most of the demo stuff I have seen on it shows it works REALLY well. But, until *I* can use it, I cannot really say how well.

http://www.caprockdev.com/antimoire.htm
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=188884&page=5


Another area people have been really working with the 7D is in the picture settings. From the MASSIVE amounts of reading I have done, changing the color settings seems to produce wider dynamic range images than the default settings. Here is one site that goes into a lot of this:

(I believe this is for the 5D but it applies)

http://prolost.com/blog/2009/8/3/flatten-your-5d.html

And seeing this which was done with a 5D I thought was GREAT for a test film:

http://www.vimeo.com/7367904

For me, the choice I decided was to go with the 7D that will eventually become by B camera, for super shallow DoF shots. I plan on going with the Scarlet Fixed as my everything else camera (or where I will have more movement). I debated this for awhile, but have not regretted my decision one bit with going with the 7D. The low light performance is AMAZING. Absolutely Amazing. Definitely worth it's cost.

Rick
 
Roberto B said:
twixtor works fine
Click to expand...

I assume this is in response to my comment about 5Dmk2 framerates.

It doesn't matter if a tool like twixtor works, even if its magical.

The camera should take a framerate that works well in postproduction workflows right on the timeline.

Also, when you start with a highly compressed format, then you really want to minimize the amount of digital voodoo you must do to get your files into a deliverable state.

So... the 5Dmk2 is out as a production tool for me, and out of my recommendations as well, until the announced firmware with more useful video framerates is available.

I have a lot more to complain about regarding vDSLR cameras, but that is the thing that makes many of them impractical for a lot of projects. Sound isn't an issue, because we all know how to do second system.

Being forced to render just to get the right framerate- that's an issue.
 
on yours.. mileage varies a loooot from book to book.
 
Roberto B said:
on yours.. mileage varies a loooot from book to book.
Click to expand...

I don't understand.

I don't think I've said a thing about the 5Dmk2 that isn't a flat fact.

I haven't mentioned any books.

Do you mean that frame rate conversion/rendering may or not be an issue from shoot to shoot? Well obviously that's true.
 
your 4th partially anwers to your 2nd.. an issue is a flat fact.. frame rate conversion/rendering is just a partial issue
 
My understanding is that the 5d and 7d shoot an advertised 30p and 24p, but in reality they are 29.97 and 23.97. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The 30p recording is the reason I didnt go with the 5d. And the 7D has surpassed my expectations for $1700. As long as you manage the whip-pans, its more than good enough. Check out this music video we shot:

http://www.vimeo.com/7867769

There's a little bit of jello at times, but I'm honestly surprised there's not more. My only suggestion for shooting with 7D is to either put it on a tripod, a steadicam, or to build a heavy rig around it, as the micro-shake you get from such a light camera is terrible.

Alexander Ibrahim said:
I am not a fan of the 5Dmk2 for production right now.

The 5D doesn't shoot proper frame rates. For example it actually shoots 30p, not 29.97. It also doesn't shoot any flavor of 24p.

When the new 5D firmware ships then you can probably shift all your work to the 5D which is frankly a nicer camera.
Click to expand...
 
Rick Presas said:
I've asked a similar question on this forum before, but things have changed a little.

I'm shooting a feature-length micro budget film in July. Our budget for a camera is right around $10,000. I'm shooting on a DVX these days, and since an upgrade is in order anyway, i figure that is the perfect time to do it by.

Ideally, I'd be using the Scarlet 2/3" for the shoot. In the unlikely even that the Scarlet is NOT released by that time, well then i need to explore some other options.

Here are some ideas i had. other suggestions are welcome.


Please note - I'm not interested in renting.
Click to expand...

So you are not interested in renting.
Why not?

I would be curious to see what you consider to be a "Micro Budget" for this feature length film, and what is more important to you? Owning a new camera, or producing a viable film?
 
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