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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

experience with live grading?

I have used Pomfort LiveGrade and 3cP (v5) and Truelight.

Pomfort LiveGrade is my favorite. I highly recomend it.

I have not used the new 3cP version 6, but version 5 needs a control surface to really be useful. It does not have lift gamma gain wheels, only the nine sliders to control them. Not very user friendly without control surface. I think v6 is the same. V5 puts the same look in every HDlink so you only get one look for all cameras. I think v6 allows different look for each HDlink.

Truelight is nice, but too expensive for most shows to paint more than one cam at a time.


Dusty
 
livegrade gives the most and best options for the price. latest update put a lot of great new features in, including new camera presets that are hard to find. different delogs built right into the software that you'd have to pull teeth from the mother company of the cameras to get. it's easy, it works the way it should, and they have top notch support and constantly updating the software.

haven't used 3cp but from what I hear they are much slower to do any updates. I prefer sticking with a company that's very on top of updating their software.

i'm sure there are "better" options out there, but livegrade and a hdlink does a damn fine job, for a fraction of the price. if your saved looks line up right in the dailies and for the finishing colorist to look at, than to me there's no point in going for something more expensive. my dailies always line up perfect, and i have never gotten a call about my cdl's not lining up right.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys! Livegrade looks like the way to go.

Some more questions:
1. Looking at getting a Sony PVM 25" OLED and Tangent elements or Avid Artist MC Color along with the HD Link Pro. What monitor & control panel are you guys using?

2. Is there a way to use BMD ultra scope simultaneously?

3. If Livegrading Epic, I don't see any of the tools available as in Redcine-X. I understand it is a rudimentary grade we are applying, but some precision tools like Flut control or Alchemy can help determine whether we are 'safe' or not in retaining highlights. I haven't done a full test yet (hope this week) but how do you guys work around this?

4. I work as a DIT, and have to wrangle data as well. Would you say that Livegrading is a job in its own right, or could it be done along with other DIT duties?
I see a livegrader having to move from setup to setup quite a lot, esp. on location, and make adjustments for each lighting setup while communicating with the DOP, etc.
In your opinion, would a separate data wrangler be needed on set?

Thanks for your time,
Martin
 
1. pvm is a great choice, i own one myself. I'd do some research on it to see if it's the right choice for you. it has it's issues, including quality control. biggest difference between the pvm and bvm series. bvm series they'll be perfect every time, pvm is a shot in the dark which is why it's so much cheaper. i personally got a good one, and know other people that have, and some that haven't. really on you on what you really want. but a oled really does bring a huge wow factor to set. as a DIT there should be no reason why I shouldn't have the best monitor on set. it has to be calibrated, accurate, and I'm glad it makes other monitors look lackluster and bad, because it means the DP is gonna be coming to my cart every time signing off on looks on a panel I trust.

2. you can, but you need to run another dedicated monitor. it will have to go in a tower as an express card, or u can get the usb version but it will take up the whole screen on your monitor and you'll have to toggle back and forth to it. I keep a leader scope on my cart just to avoid all these messy issues.

3. you can't live paint with redcine x. it's a completely untethered piece of software. you shoot something, you bring it to the comp, load it up, color, get it signed off on. you can either load that look into camera or reapply the look with more takes and adjust as needed. It's been done pretty much since red workflow got really smooth. if you want to monitor the highlights, you should be monitoring the camera feed at all times. pomfort just put out a redgamma 3 delog lut built into into it, and I just did a spec shoot over the weekend to test this method out, making it a more traditional video workflow. Gonna do a full write up about it later, but all I can say is, it works if you know what you are doing. and I'm getting great results across the board. It's gonna really start letting me keep close to the same setup with every job no matter what camera now. but as you said there are no other tools quite like red cine x that are for free. I use scratch lab these days as my color tool for untethered work, and dailies as well. it's more robust in doing actual color, and can manipulate metadata that's essential to me as well. you lose that doing live grade, but the beauty of raw is that you can still make tweaks to the raw if your live paintboxing wasn't cutting it and complete your fine tuning there. usually I find that if you lock on the white balance you want in camera, you can get where you want to be on the live signal without having to futz with metadata. but it's always there if you feel like it's gonna give you a cleaner better image. Livegrading for RED is possible but it's not for everybody, especially those so used to the way it is now, and there are pros and cons to both workflows of tethered and untethered.

4. I data manage as well too, but that's because I'm really OCD about it and need to be able to look at the footage, qc it, make sure it's fine, and only trust myself in most cases to do the backups. but on union sets there is still the position of loader that works to just backup footage while the DIT works on doing look and backing up the DP on exposure and assuring him he's got what he wants. It makes it easier to move with set as well since you aren't tied up in a download. I don't personally do much of that since I do a lot of on set dailies as well which is a beyond what a person working as a loading should be doing. but if I wasn't doing dailies, I would def want a loader I can trust every time. being able to move and stay with set every time is really critical to me. doesn't always happen but I usually like to make it happen as much as I can.
 
Wow, thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated!

We are planning to get the PVM 25" for livegrading and the PVM 17" for director and client monitors, hoping the match the looks across the board as much as possible this way.

about the BMD ultrascope, my idea was to use the MBP screen for that with the USB version, and hook up the PVM to the MBP via the HD Link Pro for LiveGrade. Does this work? Question is, can i do both LiveGrade AND Ultrascope over the SAME HD-SDI feed? Or via loop-through from HD Link to Ultrascope? Or would it require another feed?

Understood about RCX, was just hoping to get similar tools in LiveGrade, maybe at some point in the future. Will be very curious to see your write up on the whole redgamma 3 delog with LiveGrade. What does the workflow look like? Will you post it in this forum?

Another idea was the similarly priced Flander's monitor which comes with built in scopes. Do like the idea of the wow-factor of OLEDs.
 
if you want the monitors to match you'll need the calibrated. i guarantee they won't be perfectly matching out of the box.

if you look at the ultrascope usb on the blackmagic website, you'll see it's only a single sdi in. no loop through. so the ultrascope is gonna be a terminating point for your sdi feed. you'll probably want a distribution amplifier in the mix. if you don't it will basically end up like this

camera signal - to hd link - to monitor - to scope. then it stops. meaning you're not getting a feed back to your director's monitor, vtr, or whoever. you're the only one see your color. you get a DA in there, you can distro out of your hd link, and run to your monitor, ultrascope, and back to anywhere else all at the same time.


I'll be posting about the workflow later this week hopefully, there's a lot of hush hush around the project I just worked on, just gotta go through all the proper channels first.

flanders was my first monitor I used for grading on set. it did a fine job, and having the built in scopes, false color etc. did me really well! and from that I graduated to a full on real scope, better monitor, etc. It helps you realize what you need , rather than diving into so much gear you need to try to figure out as you go. good luck!
 
I have had no issues with my HDlinks with Pomfort Livegrade. Sending CDLs from Livegrade to Resolve the footage looks the same. Have not done a test with a split screen monitor to get super critical, but onset work is a starting point and not as hyper critical as finish work. I probably wouldn't use an HDlink in my Color suite, but I think they work great onset with Pomfort Livegrade and the settings translate correctly.

For onset monitors I really like Flanders. I have had problems with Sony Oled monitors not being properly calibrated and not matching. Flanders will calibrate your monitor for free anytime. One of our Flanders monitor had not been calibrated for two years and it looked just as good right before calibration as after.

I like the Flanders better than the PVM monitors and the BVM are way too expensive for onset work and still take work to get looking right. In my opinion onset is a poor environment for hyper critical work with a super expensive monitor. Get a good monitor, keep it calibrated, and pay attention to your scopes. I think it is funny when someone is looking at my monitor on set with sunlight glaring on it and asking aren't the blacks so much better on the Sony OLED monitors. They don't even know enough to know we should get to a better viewing environment or close the door on the black out tent, but they have heard OLED is better.

BM recommends Ultrascope runs on its on computer. Plus like Tom said, it has no pass-through so you need to take that into consideration. I use the little BM 1u 16x16 switcher and it works great for me.


Dusty
 
I don't disagree with you at all Dusty, I moonlight in finishing color as well, so in my case, just brining my pvm to set makes more sense than me buying another monitor :)

and i have a probe and software to calibrate my monitor often. I also just like keeping the policy of having the best monitor on set. has more to do with politics on set than anything else, but I also want to trust what I'm looking at, outdoors i have my blackout tent, indoors i still ask for courtesies to cut ambient light away from my monitors. and having made the decision, looking at oled all the time now, lcds look really off to me these days so there's no going back for me. i drank the oled koolaid.

bm smarthub is great! I was gonna get one but invested in a little more pieced together system with a patch bay, series of day's, and a matrix switcher. if and when i do a full overhaul I'm def going with the smart hub.
 
Tom,

We don't have to agree about everything. :)

The couple BVM OLEDs I have used showed up on set from the rental house all out of wack and the one PVM I used belonged to a new DIT and I liked my Flanders better sitting next to it. I am sure they are great monitors when someone sets them up correctly. I also just really like dealing with Flanders the company.

My carts are also set up so I can have my Flanders on the desk and I can mount what ever monitors the DP wants on the side. Production just has to pay separate for the DPs monitors.



Dusty
 
The new camera presets are a nice new addition to Pomfort Livegrade. Need to do more thorough testing with it, but looks promising.

Another option to look at for scopes is Scopebox 3. Hard to beat real scopes, but these guys did a nice job with this version and it's cheap.

As for monitors, this really depends on what the workflow is. Sometimes the calibrations are related to post monitoring, so that everyone's monitors match throughout the process. But generally speaking you want a monitor that meets the following criteria:
- Professionally calibrated to REC709 specs (or whatever specs you are working under)
- Accurate black levels
- Natural sharpness
- 10-bit panel (or 8-bit panel with good processing)
- Variety of inputs including HD-SDI and HDMI
- 444 option is nice
- Built in scopes are nice when you need a quick look at the signal
 
_If_ I were to Livegrade epic I would use Livegrade, with the camera in RedLogfilm output mode, the use the LUT's (transforms) in Davinci Resolve applied over the RedLogfilm base.
 
Did a quick test with LiveGrade + HD Link Pro 3D + Tangent Elements + HD-SDI Panasonic BT U 1760 monitor
Worked marvelously with both Epic and Alexa.
Question, can not seem to get the B feed to work on the HDL.
I would like to be able to switch A cam to B cam from Live Grade, for which I see the function
both with the LG UI and the Tangent panel. All i get when I plug in both cameras at the same time is a flicker
of the B feed but the A feed is 'dominant'. Do both cams need to be either Alexa or both Epic?
Or am I forgetting something?
Would be great if mixed camera makes could be used at the same time.
 
Martin Landsburg said:
I would like to be able to switch A cam to B cam from Live Grade, for which I see the function
both with the LG UI and the Tangent panel. All i get when I plug in both cameras at the same time is a flicker
of the B feed but the A feed is 'dominant'. Do both cams need to be either Alexa or both Epic?
Or am I forgetting something?
Would be great if mixed camera makes could be used at the same time.
Click to expand...


Dustin Cross said:
A and B on HDlink is for 3D. You can turn on 3D in the HDlink software and adjust all the 3D setting. Does not work for switching two non 3D cameras. You need one HDlink for each camera.
Click to expand...

I don't have LiveGrade myself, but maybe Pomfort have implemented something clever using the dual channel capabilities of the HDLink 3D to enable you to switch between two cameras. However I would imagine that since the hardware is designed for 3D, the cameras would need to be genlocked for it to work.

Martin, were the Epic and the Alexa both locked to the same sync? This would not be easy (or maybe even possible) to do, as the Alexa cannot lock to a try-level sync.
 
Hi Dustin,

thanks, it makes sense as in the LiveGrade UI under device manager it shows the LUT box (in this case HDL) and not the camera as our 'device'. Was just hoping that what Nick Shaw mentioned could actually work.

What about the Pandora Pluto? Their website mentions this:
"A "Dual Head" mode allows a single Pluto board to be used with two independent single link monitors with separate LUT's for each display for 16 or 17 point cubes only. Alternatively the device can be used in dual link mode with a single monitor in which case 16/17/32/33 point cubes are possible."

We will most likely buy the Pluto anyway, for it's better LUT capabilities at higher resolutions and ARRIRAW support. Would be good if above also means we can use two cameras on one box.

Just hope LiveGrade will support ARRIRAW with other raw recorders such as the Gemini RAW, which we are more likely to get rather than the Codex. The market demands ARRIRAW but unfortunately is not willing to pay for Codex.
 
What are people doing in terms of live grading with Epic if RedLogFilm is the preferred base to start with? There was talk of sending different gamma spaces out of the various inputs (i.e. Red LCD can display RedColor 3, HD-SDI can output RLF), but it doesn't seem to be enabled yet...any idea when this might come to fruition? Seems like this would be an integral part to this sort of workflow (similar to MON OUT / REC OUT on the you know what)...

Any workarounds people are using? Just using LiveGrade without the de-log?
 
reviving an old thread, yet again :)
I'm using Davinci Resolve LIVE now for live grading, with an Ultrastudio mini recorder and mini monitor. The live grading from an Alexa XT works: I get a signal, grade, capture, and get a nice image in the time line that shows the time code. The overlays are there as well so I can see the clipname. However, when i export this graded image as a LUT and apply to the Arri RAW it does not match; much less contrast and a different color cast as well. Is this simply because the output from the Alexa is just a compressed signal, and could never match the raw? If so, why is it advertised as such a workflow? If not, what am I doing wrong?
 
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