Expectations...

[Nick Wernham]

We need to shoot "normal" motion at least at 72 f/s to get the perception of images that are equally smooth in the motion and temporal sense as they are in image gradation and resolution.

I don't buy this. I don't think that "temporal resolution" as you describe it is as big an indicator of the quality of moving images as detail within each frame. In fact, I don't think of it as an indicator of moving images at all so much as a choice. I can see why having smoother, more fluid movement than we are used to would be a very compelling visual technique to eploy. However, there is a reason why images played back at 24fps are more pleasing to the eye than images played back at 30fps in most cases (at least as it pertains to narrative films). It is because 24fps represents a "sweet spot" between having the image look smooth and allowing for the syncing of sound and the image being disjointed enough to make your brain a bit in trying to connect the still photographs that make up the single moving image. By forcing your brain to effectively pay more attention the image winds up being more engaging.

 

[Paolo Tinari]

F23 is a popular target.

So why saying people have "unrealistic" expectations?

 

[Häakon]

Why not just wait until we announce before guessing?

Jim

Been saying this for ages.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...-try-and-count&p=821834&viewfull=1#post821834

I think there is an inherent problem with this Scarlet discussion, however. There is a camp of people who are praying for the best camera possible at a very low price point. This was, I believe, spawned by the initial "3K for $3K" mantra back at NAB 2008 and there is a whole sect of people in that category who are expecting a replacement for their HVX. You might say "well RED has stated they are making products for pros, not prosumers" but I am telling you that expectation is there. There is a whole Scarletuser forum drooling for this. And in one sense, I completely understand that. If you want the whole enchilada, there's Epic. I have no idea what Scarlet's specs are going to be but if it's a slightly feature-less Epic in the $15k price range I think it's the wrong move. The indie guys get left out and the big guys will just buy Epic anyway. That's my take.

The other problem is that not only are people wanting it as cheap as possible, they're speculating it will have ridiculous specs. And of course you can't have both... so one camp is going to inevitably be disappointed. Jim has made it pretty clear that this isn't going to compete with Epic, so I don't know why people keep guessing configurations resembling that.

Perhaps they can meet both groups' expectations by bringing out two models: a cheaper 2/3" fixed lens model, and a more intermediate level s35 removable lens version. That would actually be the original plan: the Scarlet fixed and the (now) Epic-S. But a 2/3" sensor isn't going to have 4K's worth of pixels on it and an Epic-S isn't a Scarlet (it's an Epic), so something needs to budge. Then again, I know nothing about building a camera so take this all with a grain of salt.

Personally, I think the speculation on this website borders on frustrating craziness sometimes but I know some people find it "fun" so I hold my tongue. If Jim is asking people to calm down a little however, (or at least risk being very disappointed), I hope people heed those wishes a little bit.

Just my 2¢.

 

[Marc Fisher]

I recall a certain quote: "If you are concerned, you are not committed".
Those of us who have faith in Red and require a cheaper alternative to the Epic will simply hit 'buy' when the Scarlet is in the store. The specs are irrelevant - because it will be the best camera at it's price point, by a large margin. Period. That's all you need to accept. The rest is BS until then.

M

 

[Elsie N]

If anyone is disappointed in the Scarlet Nov. 3rd announcement... they suck. And we won't lose one minute of sleep. The announcement is just too good.

Jim

I can see a potential for disappointment. If you could clarify whether November 3rd announcement(s) is mainly about the Scarlet camera, or if it has news that is jaw-dropping for everyone in general, then that would head off a potential buzz kill for some.

 

[Brian Boyer]

There's one component that RED's cameras can never deliver at any price point - talent.

Talent is always the deciding factor for the greatest potential of any tool. RED can only do so much. The rest is up to us.

Whatever Scarlet ends up being, it will probably be more than enough camera for the vast majority of its users. The truly talented people will make it sing.

 

[Laco Gaal]

hi,

is nov3th: announcing, ordering, shipping? Or "just" announcing?
I would like to know if I have to transfer some money on my Mastercard till then, or not

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

People guess wild things on here cause way deep down places they don't talk about at parties, they are really making suggestions and are praying RED will say "Wow that's a great idea.. 8k for $800.00.... Let's give it to 'em!"

 

[Brian Boyer]

I can see a potential for disappointment. If you could clarify whether November 3rd announcement(s) is mainly about the Scarlet camera, or if it has news that is jaw-dropping for everyone in general, then that would head off a potential buzz kill for some.

Elsie, I'm not attacking you, but that presumption is a Reduser creation and an example of what I mentioned in an earlier post. To my knowledge, no one at RED said anything about Nov. 3rd being about ANYTHING other than Scarlet. That came from guessing and speculation.

RED shouldn't have to clarify something that they didn't state in the first place.

 

[Felix Steinhardt]

All I expect is the camera you already showed. 2/3", fixed Zoom. Add another 1000 $ if you like... but not more

What I fear is something like a 4k update, which for me is unnecesarry, because I deliver on Bluray @ max. that makes the camera twice as expensive.

 

[John C Picking Jr]

The Army of Scarlets was 2/3" 8x fixed zoom 3K. Why don't y'all just stay there until the 3rd. Let RED surprise you. The people that actually want to buy a Scarlet will not be disappointed.

 

[lumiere]

Why not just wait until we announce before guessing?

Jim

Jim,

You should seriously consider charging an access fee for REDUSER.net. I find the speculations and the general chatter highly entertaining. I'd pay a few bucks a month for the entertainment.

 

[Enrique Blein]

I am fine with the specs as they were a year ago, 3K, 2/3rds, 120 fps and if HDRx happens, great! I also feel I have to make a very fast decision on the moment I see the options, that's what's bugging me, I hope the store opens a few hours later so we can meditate about what exactly we want to spend our savings on, I've been saving 15K for 3 years now...and I don't want to have to decide in 9.48 seconds flat.

 

[Eric Lange]

OK.

Somebody mentioned “out of the box color”. In the MF world that is a VERY big deal. Jim keeps going on about we’re getting the RED library together. So there are many different types of technical “library” that one can have. So it may be that there are some VERY nice goodies (software/profiles) and even more didactic materials and other “know how goodies” that come from the best in the industry.

RED BROTHERS, RED SISTERS, RED COMRADES….

I put forward the motion that we do not speak about K, $, or fps ANYMORE!!!

Just about every possible combination that you can think of has already been mention (probably); There is absolutely no value in speculating the K vs. $ vs. fps (design ratios). Clearly as indicated by Jim this seems to be totally missing the point.

I vote that we pack up any more discussions of K,$,fps.

And maybe even sensor size???

In terms of the laws of combinatorics this one has already been done to death many times over, surely?

Let’s use our amazing speculative imaginations to talk about something else IF indeed there is anything left to actually talk about…?

Yours VERY respectfully,

Eric

[It’s a free country (where I am) but I will willingly abstain from any discussion of K, $, fps]

[I’m expecting a huge tumble weed moment on this one….]

 

[Felix K.]

I often fall into the speculations-trap. It's just too much fun sometimes. With Scarlet I'm now just waiting to hear a number so that I can make a plan to achieve that number in my bank account before I transfer it to RED. Scarlet won't suddenly have worse features than those announced 2 years ago and I am fine with what was then. If it improved in any unknown way (we know about HDRx and the SSD option) great. I'm looking forward to November and especially the months after that when the first reports from shooting with Scarlet role in.
I hope I'll get a job after my teacher training finishes. First thing on the agenda will be a Scarlet then.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Jim said Scarlet would have HDRx and 4K -since Jim is the de facto evangelist when it comes to the holy grail that is 4K. Even if 48FPS is the max, everyone's a winner. I haven't had a need to speculate or comment about any of this because I have an MX, two Epic-M's, and an X on the way (like I need another camera). Scarlet will be a wicked little tool that puts 'pro' into the hands of everyone, and HDRx alone is worth whatever Scarlet's price point is.

 

[Steven Hammer]

I'd be extremely happy with the original specifications. Anything more is just gravy. What I'm really hoping for is for RED to come somewhat close to hitting the most recently stated price point.

 

[Stephen Aldridge]

Jim's initial post on this thread is why I only read Jim's or Jarred's posts on anything to do with Scarlet. If threads are about the Epic or the MX I'll read what anyone has to say but as soon as Scarlet comes up I just skip through reading Jim, Jarred and anyone from Red because the speculation is killing me.

 

[Mondo Ghulam]

The last-known specs and estimated-price point are still beyond amazing to me. If there had been a competing product anywhere near that offer, I suspect many would have moved on long ago.

So far, what we know is that it's going to be announced and we'll be able to place orders. That's it. And... that there's nothing out there currently that comes close in terms of proposed specs/price/workflow.

Given the change in philosophy at RED regarding announcements, Nov 3rd should be huge and exciting news in its own right. Speculating above or below price, specs and how one is going to feel about it etc., has no basis in fact or reality. I'm sitting tight, enjoying the anticipation and ignoring the speculation.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I would say that part of the wild speculation is fueled by placing SCARLET up against Canon's 4K offering and the hinting and implications that RED would best it, in terms of specs.

Perhaps without meaning to, Jim, I think you threw a log on the fire...

If Canon is putting up a 4K camera, then we are looking for the possibility of some sort of competitive bump in the SCARLET specs - better than 3K.

Same with 2/3 - if it is up against Canon's 35mm camera, and the objective is to win the fist fight, then aren't we going to suddenly wonder if the 2/3 spec is changing as well?

Then logically, an assumption of other spec bumps isn't going to be far behind.

Canon isn't going to put up junk. If they are going to put a horse in this race, it will be a serious contender. I'm as curious as anyone else to see where it all lands.

Canon doesn't stand a chance against EPIC specs, I think we can comfortably assume that...but if SCARLET is 3K, 2/3, even with RAW and HDR and Canon is 4K and 35mm, but 10 bit 4:2:2, then, assuming comparable price points, consumers in this price bracket are again faced with "this one" or "that one" - choosing among differentiated feature sets and price points, based on application and budgetary considerations.

Weight is a factor as well that no one is discussing. I picked up an F3 for the first time last week, and I did have a "wow" feeling...damn thing is a true S35 camcorder, the first true run n gun S35 unit I've yet seen. This is no small feat. I was impressed. And I was somewhat surprised that I was impressed - after shooting RED cameras for 3 years now and EPIC for the past 5 months, I didn't think I could be impressed. I really didn't - but I was.

It all just goes to show how far RED has pushed this entire industry in a very, very short time. In some sense, the real competition is just beginning, and RED holds a remarkable hand. I've invested, at this point, hundreds of thousands of dollars into RED technology, so naturally, I'm a believer, a loyalist, and my blood runs RED. But the sleeping giants are awakening.

At some point soon, the battle won't be cameras. It will be affordable delivery systems for all these beautiful pixels...currently so far behind the systems of acquisition.

I'm hoping that November 3rd has an ace up that sleeve.