Evin Grant's NAB 2011 lens roundup...

[AnthonyFlores]

As a side note Evin and guys, I really wish Panavision had a different business model and decided to manufacture and sell lenses. They could still be very premium-priced like Leicas or MP's, but I feel like they have such a treasure of designs that they could be selling and not just hoarding away for exclusive rentals.

For instance, since we are on the topic of zooms, I noticed this page:

http://www.panavision.com/content/primo-zooms?l=1&c=0&p=13

These are a bit heavy compared to Optimo Rouges, but if you click around they have some "advanced ones" such a 19-90mm at T2.8 that is only 7 pounds. Not bad! And their Digital Zoom line for 2/3 sensors has some T1.9 zooms that would rock on Scarlet -- never mind the amazing look and optical quality that comes with Panny glass. (I saw one at NAB, one of the smoothest focus rotations I've ever felt and it caught my eye because it was a zoom at T1.9).

Honestly, if I were in Jim's shoes (maybe this is dumb, there's a reason why he's a billionaire and I'm not) but just dreaming out loud, why not buy Panavision and then take over all their designs and manufacturing. I know Red is positioned more as "affordable" and perhaps doesn't want to steal thunder from it's high-end lens partners and distributors like BandPro -- but Jeff as you noted, camera tech is advancing faster than cine lenses are, and there's sadly not enough demand right now (maybe not ever) for high end brands like Leica or Arri to build high-end cine lenses designed for larger formats. It's just too small of a nice in terms of sales volume.

But by taking over Panavision (assuming they would ever sell, but then again everything has it's price) I think Red would have both the most advanced cameras and the most historically renown lenses -- with proven designs to match virtually every camera they offer or will ever offer. Seems like that would cut a lot of development time and I don't think Red customers would mind either ... I have a feeling those who could afford it would gladly welcome Red having ultra-premium lens line

Also, here's another thought -- what if this lens line, which would optically rival MP's or Leicas ... ranging from 2/3 all the way to 65 or 70mm formats, cost only $15-20k per prime? It's still premium but a big savings for Red customers versus other brands.

"Red Primo Primes" ... I like the sound of it!

Anyway, this is a lot of thinking out loud -- hope I didn't sound too stupid.

Anthony

 

[Tim Duran]

Anthony, great idea for Red. I think the question would then be should Red remain known as "Red" or work off the primier status of the Panavision name and loose all the bad karma from early Red fumbles and negative baggage. All things being equal, I'd rather have a "Panavision" brand in my hand than "Red." But I'm the first to admit that I'm a bit more old school and a purist when working features. And all things are not equal.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Anthony, great idea for Red. I think the question would then be should Red remain known as "Red" or work off the primier status of the Panavision name and loose all the bad karma from early Red fumbles and negative baggage. All things being equal, I'd rather have a "Panavision" brand in my hand than "Red." But I'm the first to admit that I'm a bit more old school and a purist when working features. And all things are not equal.

Okay, so it wasn't a totally insane idea ... well, it seems like co-branding (at least on the lenses) might be a good idea. That's where the name is most valuable, well that and film cameras. The Genesis doesn't carry that much cache. So no need to take over the entire name, Panavision is not a digital cinema company. But again, the primary reason would be for lenses, manufacturing and possibly Panavision's rental/distribution channels as demand for Epic/Scarlet explodes.

I did a little more research and discovered that while Panavision has a great brand name and assets, they might not be the most fiscally healthy company (this is from wikipedia, obviously might not be true):

In March 2010, citing a drop in production and difficulty servicing significant debt as a result of the 1998 Mafco transaction, shareholder MacAndrews & Forbes agreed to a debt restructuring arrangement with Panavision's creditors. Private equity firm Cerberus Capital was the lead investor in the deal, which involved a USD $140 million reduction in debt and a USD $40 million cash infusion.[47]

Anyway, tying this back to the purpose of this thread ... one of the things I think we all see is how difficult it is to design and manufacture high-end, optically phenomenal lenses. Look how long the Leicas are taking! Not only that, but even if you do ... customers are very attached to established brand names like Zeiss, Cooke, Panavision, Leica, etc. Many Red owners have seen this with RPP's being not as easy to rent out. So by taking over Panavision, Red would essentially be inheriting the best lens name, and some of the best lens designs ever created (and I also assume manufacturing capacities as well). I think this is an unbelievably huge asset, especially since the resolution race is created an increasingly high demand for lens quality across all formats.

I dunno ... maybe I'm being too simplistic. Or maybe Panavision is a sacred cow that can't be touched. Or maybe it would feel like "cheating" to Jim and he wants to do it all from the ground up and not cut corners like this.

Who knows, but it sure is interesting to think about.

Anthony

P.S. -- I realize that Jim is ... um ... a pretty smart guy, to say the least. So I'm sure thoughts like this have crossed his mind and there are plenty of things he sees that I don't

 

[Peter Strietmann]

Question for Mr Chater. Did you have a look at the Leicas? Any thoughts on them?

 

[John Chater]

Mr Chater?? Geez Pete...I mean Mr Strietmann

My only thought when I saw them was that I wish Id put my order in earlier !

John
Chater Camera Inc
San Francisco

 

[Paul Nordin]

My only thought when I saw them was that I wish Id put my order in earlier !

Now thats good news indeed!

 

[John Fairstein]

I saw the Illuminas and even had them on an EPIC. They are actually a little larger but not longer than the Leica's. All the lenses are essentially the same size and they've been recertified to T1.2 at $33K for the set of 5 primes 18-85mm.

They seemed very nice in the brief bit we got to play with them. We did shoot some footage with them so need to look at it and analyze, however imperfect the "Testing" was

Outside of the Leica's I'm really looking forward to getting these up on the projector and Camera for some reasonable testing.

Jason

I recently participated in a brief demo by Luma Tech of the Illuminas. They are smaller than the RED Primes and of comparable build quality. The iris is at the nodal point (not the front) as you would expect. We played with the 18mm and 25mm on my RED. No formal testing, but we looked at faces at 1.2 and 4, and shone a flashlight into the lens from about 25 ft. away. Flattering look to the faces, and very little flare. It was an LED flashlight so we couldn't fairly evaluate chromatic aberrations. The rep, Glenn Leibold informed us that the optical elements are first aligned, then the barrels are built around them. Not sure how that works, but it would certainly reduce breathing. We did not see any breathing.

Glenn also mentioned that the Illuminas are designed for ease of service, and I notice they've conducted several clinics around the country for lens techs.

I've also used the RED 18mm and 25mm lenses. Comparing the RED and the Illuminas, my impression is that the Illuminas give a warmer more Cooke like look. Plus you need a stop less light. For techies, Lomo did an optical comparison with Zeiss, Cooke, etc. Glenn mentioned they have a CD of the test results, but I have not looked at them. Their website is http://www.lumatechinc.com/2.html

I am in no way affiliated with Luma Tech, Illumina, or LOMO, and my comments are just personal impressions.

 

[John Fairstein]

...Honestly, if I were in Jim's shoes (maybe this is dumb, there's a reason why he's a billionaire and I'm not) but just dreaming out loud, why not buy Panavision and then take over all their designs and manufacturing. I know Red is positioned more as "affordable" and perhaps doesn't want to steal thunder from it's high-end lens partners and distributors like BandPro -- but Jeff as you noted, camera tech is advancing faster than cine lenses are, and there's sadly not enough demand right now (maybe not ever) for high end brands like Leica or Arri to build high-end cine lenses designed for larger formats. It's just too small of a nice in terms of sales volume. Anthony

I thought merging with Panavision or Arri or both was going to be the big NAB announcement. Maybe I need to cut back on beer. Another Panavision plus is their service department and on-set customer support. I think they also have a lot of custom design and fabrication capabilities. Even if none of the 3 companies ever merge, they seem to all be on good terms with each other.

 

[Peter Strietmann]

Mr Chater?? Geez Pete...I mean Mr Strietmann

My only thought when I saw them was that I wish Id put my order in earlier !

John
Chater Camera Inc
San Francisco

Johnny,

I sorta figured as much. I've been using leica glass since the 60s and it never seems to fail.

Best, Pete

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

(Anyhony, I quoted a bunch of different things from two of you posts. As you said, too interesting not to discuss. So I apologize for my "creative" organization)

Honestly, if I were in Jim's shoes (maybe this is dumb, there's a reason why he's a billionaire and I'm not) but just dreaming out loud, why not buy Panavision and then take over all their designs and manufacturing.

Perhaps because their assets and name add up to a pile of money even a billionaire doesn't spend lightly. But I don't think he would even if the numbers didn't matter.

I did a little more research and discovered that while Panavision has a great brand name and assets, they might not be the most fiscally healthy company (this is from wikipedia, obviously might not be true)

But when you say "Hollywood" you think "Panavision", and when you say "Panavision" you think "Hollywood". And there's the hard assets you mentioned.

Liquidity problems don't change that Panavision is still a major cash cow. Don't get me wrong, I am DOWN with the idea of Red buying out Panavision! We all love Panavision (and love to hate them for their hoarding traits), but it won't happen in a million years (please let me be wrong!).

Panavision knows what they have better than anyone. I bet they know they can turn it around and what it will take, so that they can move past this and have an other half a century of success that will more than cover any "recent" losses. It is all about the captain driving the ship. So Red will continue to catch up or at the very least remain level so long as Jannard wants to "keep playing" with his machined legos.

I would bet Jim would NEVER agree to let the name RED go. I wouldn't and I don't look half as bad-ass as Jim! But really, he doesn't seem the type at all, at least to me. And he's got Jarred pushing behind him, and Graeme, and an other few hundred "never-compromise" types that have been pushing back the front (and frontiers) since being brought onto the Red team.

But by taking over Panavision (assuming they would ever sell, but then again everything has it's price) I think Red would have both the most advanced cameras and the most historically renown lenses -- with proven designs to match virtually every camera they offer or will ever offer.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Leica provided most/all the Panavision glass, right? Though Panavision must be the owner of the designs.

It so, this means Red has what they need, and can create what they don't yet have: A more complete portfolio of revolutionary optical designs. And even just by supporting Leica, that alone should at least ensure that all they create will come in PL, and perhaps in Red's Electronic Mount once that comes out! Perhaps Leica will help with the production of Red's next optics generation, the Electronic Zooms, and eventually the anamorphic primes... I dunno, we'll chase our tail speculating! but what's most important we already know: Red and Leica are helping each other somehow!

"Red Primo Primes" ... I like the sound of it!

Many people think RPPs have Leica glass, so I think you could get away with calling them that already if you want. It does sound good.

Anyway, tying this back to the purpose of this thread ... one of the things I think we all see is how difficult it is to design and manufacture high-end, optically phenomenal lenses. Look how long the Leicas are taking! Not only that, but even if you do ... customers are very attached to established brand names like Zeiss, Cooke, Panavision, Leica, etc. Many Red owners have seen this with RPP's being not as easy to rent out.

I would bet Jim is playing the long game. He will work hard, and build the name himself. Just look at the guy's attitude: "Fiji? Nah... I'm doing it again!" (not a direct quote)

By looking at the operating manual for Epic, and with everything else we know and saw the cameras can do, Jannard is already "there" for cameras. He is powering through all the grief he had to bare from haters misrepresenting the Red One, especially through its early development. He is punching through walls to get to where he needs, reminds me of that scene in "Che: Part One", only this is a technological revolution!

Let's say their new Electronic RPZs come in with IQ and size/weight that makes us have to compare them directly with the little mighty Angenieux zooms... plus electronic capabilities... If that happens (and I would bet it will!) Red will be well on their way to building an optics name for themselves.

Perhaps the coolest turning-point will be that once this happened, RPPs will be accepted and "discovered" (by those that didn't look or know what to look for other than the label).

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I thought merging with Panavision or Arri or both was going to be the big NAB announcement. Maybe I need to cut back on beer. Another Panavision plus is their service department and on-set customer support. I think they also have a lot of custom design and fabrication capabilities. Even if none of the 3 companies ever merge, they seem to all be on good terms with each other.

Seems like Arri and Red have some bad blood -- Arri is spreading a lot of misinformation about Red out in the industry and won't speak to Red from what I hear. So that's a merger that would never happen IMHO. But in Panavision's case, it's a good relationship and to be frank, I think they have an even stronger name ... especially when it comes to lenses. Also, Jarred once posted about how awesome Primos were on the Epic, it just seems like such a good fit. Especially since like I said, designing and making great zooms and primes is an Epic undertaking. By taking over those lens designs, manufacturing and the brand image -- I think Red would be getting the best of both worlds.

P.S. -- Robert, I never suggested giving up the name, I would never do that either. Red already has the most powerful name in digital cinema, and it's just getting warmed up.

All I was saying is that Panavision has some serious assets (lens name/rep, designs -- almost more than Optimo and Arri combined, manufacturing and distribution in terms of rentals (which Red could perhaps use for rentals/sales around the world once production is fixed). Anyway, imagine how excited people would be -- not just Red owners -- to finally be able to buy Panavision lenses? That alone would probably be worth the purchase price.

Or Red could limit lens sales just to Red owners -- one of the many exclusive perks to putting your chips down on Red

Oh well, the fantasy is over and I keep feeling guilty for hijacking Evin's already awesome thread.

I would love to hear others thoughts on this, am tempted to start another thread on this, but maybe the idea is so unattractive or impossible that it would just piss Jim or Jarred off. That's def not what I want.

Besides, nothing big like this could ever happen until manufacturing is straightened out and the demand for cameras is being met. But who knows, maybe after 10,000 Epics and 20,000 Scarlets ship and there's a billion or so in sales -- this is an idea that could be revisited

Anthony

 

[Evin Grant]

The glass in the Primos comes from ELCAN, which used to be a division of Leica (Ernst Leitz Canada) but is now owned by Raytheon.
The majority of the Panavision Anamorphics are based on Nikon lenses.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Yes, Evin I had heard that before in the storyline for the current Leica C's. But I'm curious -- do you think they are still manufacturing Primos and other Panny lenses? Or are all the ones for rent lenses that were produced some time ago?

Also, you mentioned anamorphics ... do you know anything about their zooms? Apart from the heavy weight, they seem really impressive.

Anthony

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

The glass in the Primos comes from ELCAN, which used to be a division of Leica (Ernst Leitz Canada) but is now owned by Raytheon.
The majority of the Panavision Anamorphics are based on Nikon lenses.

So mostly Nikon designs put together lovingly by Leica. See Anthony, you weren't hijacking anything.

 

[Evin Grant]

My understanding is that Panavision designs and builds all the lenses with only the ground and polished elements coming from ELCAN, but I'm not a Panavision employee so I could be typing out of my ass

 

[AnthonyFlores]

So mostly Nikon designs put together lovingly by Leica. See Anthony, you weren't hijacking anything.

Haha. Too funny Roberto. Okay my last line on the subject in case anyone missed this:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?54398-Recap-January-22-2011...&p=741229

Wicked combo right there in the pics

Anthony

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

only the ground and polished elements coming from ELCAN

I see. Though I would use an other word because "only" doesn't go with "grounding and polishing".

Anthony, I'd shoot on Panavision anytime. But you know what would be fun? Looking through the really old ones.


And can you imagine having a Epic 645, and using their 65mm lenses?

It'd be even better if Panavision had them re-coated and tuned, perhaps even performed a little barrel improvement.

Not that I think it might be necessary. As a deserved nod to Red (that will also work for Panavision), just in time for 645 release.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I see. Though I would use an other word because "only" doesn't go with "grounding and polishing".

Anthony, I'd shoot on Panavision anytime. But you know what would be fun? Looking through the really old ones.


And can you imagine having a Epic 645, and using their 65mm lenses?

It'd be even better if Panavision had them re-coated and tuned, perhaps even performed a little barrel improvement.

Not that I think it might be necessary. As a deserved nod to Red (that will also work for Panavision), just in time for 645 release.

Yes!!! You rock Roberto. Here's to hoping that -- if Red doesn't buy/merge with Panavision -- at least maybe they partner with them to produce sets of 645 lenses for
sale ... available exclusively to owners of that Epic 645 camera.

I mean did you see how many of those lenses in the set are T2 or T1.9??? It's unreal! (Yes, I know impractical 65mm/T2 lenses are, given how hard it is to pull focus on FF35 wide open ... but still!)

Doing this would make the release of that camera even more special

Anthony

 

[Ned Wilson]

Evin

Did you miss the Schneider Optics new Cine-Xenar set. 25mm, 35, 50 75, 95 with an 18 on the way. They will only cover super 35 so a 33mm circle. They are mostly T2 with the two wider ones being 2.1 and 2.2. Very even illumination and sharp with out being to sharp like the red primes. Didn't has a chance to check flare charistics but being that they are from the same company that makes B+W filters, it may be safe to assume they are going to flare nicely. Prob the best low end set of PL glass I saw. Under 30k for the set.

The new Angienioux is dead sexy and for only 9k I am seriously thinking about a deposit on the leica's. They were wow

Matt

I was not impressed with these lenses the one time I used them. Here's why:
- Despite what resellers say, the surge forward when you focus can be up to just shy of half an inch on some lenses. This necessitates a clip on. If you do us a rod mount MB (which in many cases prefer), you run into to fit and vignetting issues as the MB has to be mounted further forward. This trait alone is a deal breaker for me. If you're a purely clip on guy, then perhaps not.
- I found the flaring to be particularly bad compared to Mk3's or even RPP's for that matter. It would create some serious color distortions as well as secondary rings in the bottom corner that looked IMO completely inorganic. Like bad or uncoated optics.
- Build quality was good.
- Focus draw was a little steep once you get into the upper reaches. Didn't make for as progressive a pull with your standard cine lenses.
- Sharpness was quite excellent.

Overall, I see no reason to buy these over RPP's. Bad flaring and the surging lens element would keep me from using them again.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

I was not impressed with these lenses the one time I used them. Here's why:
- Despite what resellers say, the surge forward when you focus can be up to just shy of half an inch on some lenses. This necessitates a clip on. If you do us a rod mount MB (which in many cases prefer), you run into to fit and vignetting issues as the MB has to be mounted further forward. This trait alone is a deal breaker for me. If you're a purely clip on guy, then perhaps not.
- I found the flaring to be particularly bad compared to Mk3's or even RPP's for that matter. It would create some serious color distortions as well as secondary rings in the bottom corner that looked IMO completely inorganic. Like bad or uncoated optics.
- Build quality was good.
- Focus draw was a little steep once you get into the upper reaches. Didn't make for as progressive a pull with your standard cine lenses.
- Sharpness was quite excellent.

Overall, I see no reason to buy these over RPP's. Bad flaring and the surging lens element would keep me from using them again.

I think these were initially conceived as a competitor to Zeiss CP2's and also perhaps as an alternative for RPP's and others in the $4000-5000 range.

However, like you I believe the drawbacks are too much relative to the positives. Perhaps if they fix some of the flaws in later edition, reduce the
size a bit ... they will be worth another look.

Anthony