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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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OMG! It's Groundhog Day! I was reading exactly this same stuff yesterday. '-)
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I can't help but point out that rentals for Epic don't exist in a vacuum. Does not the price of every other roughly comparable camera influence the market? If Panasonic comes out with a SUPER HVX-8000 that steps all over everyone else's technology, all for $4995, would RED holding their price save the day for the Epic rental market. Like it or not, RED can't dictate the market; they have to work within it.
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Terry, I appreciate your patience to try to enlighten such stubborn point of view self-centered in something that reminds me some song lyrics in my native language, which say... "um mundo que acabou p'ra não ter de mudar" (by Sétima Legião*) in english, something like: "a world that ended in order to avoid to change" ;-)


* http://www.ouvirmusica.com.br/setima-legiao/513418/#mais-acessadas/513418
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I can't help but point out that rentals for Epic don't exist in a vacuum. Does not the price of every other roughly comparable camera influence the market? If Panasonic comes out with a SUPER HVX-8000 that steps all over everyone else's technology, all for $4995, would RED holding their price save the day for the Epic rental market. Like it or not, RED can't dictate the market; they have to work within it.
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The question here is 'pricing' of what exactly? Just the brain? Or what I call the "Acquisition Solution"? I think RED has to bring down the pricing on THOSE elements of the Acquisition solution that help it compete effectively with Alexa. The Meizler module, the media, the Dragon upgrade, and the new Red Rocket.

Dropping the price on just the brain would be counterproductive, let alone be of any use to the RED troops who already have one.

Those who only care about a low-cost brain, probably want to add on a side ssd, a lens mount, perhaps a side-handle, and then not much else. RED should consider if these are the same people choosing an Alexa over an EPIC. Or the upcoming F5. Or whatever. RED needs to be clear on which demographic they are serving with the price cut, and make sure the price cuts allow for the right demo to benefit.
 
I dream and pray for a Proxymodule/in out combo, minus the wirelss. 7K or so would be a great price. The meisler is incredibly expensive for the average user.....
 
Isaac Marchionna said:
Nope, but people are freaking out regardless.

If thursday gives me a shot to jump up to an Epic, and Epic owners get a clear understanding of how Dragon will come to them, then huzzah.
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Thank you Isaac, there are still gentlemen around here ;)

Must have been the 1st and 31st Jim said we'd find out and it would go on the price list. Pity months are nit 28 days.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Yes, that's a great example of a poor analogy and an attempt to ridicule another member in one post.

Have you had enough fun or 14 more ping-pong posts should be expected ?
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I obviously disagree. First off, the post is not mine. But if I was one or another, I wouldn't feel what your interpretation is insidiously to label :( Where's your humor? Nowhere :) The problem is when we take ourselves too much serious, there's no place for change/insight -- also key of any narrative or aesthetic object. Just error.

Moreover, we are not discussing people, but arguments. It looks like one side feels their interest attacked. Well, here you have: the other side too. When there's aggressive lobbying in order to try to maintain the situation as it is. I don't know about you, but I've given a lot of my time to this RED project outside of here. I also have my goal. To see this company in good company, not hanging in defective strategies when there's something to do ;-)
 
Emanuel A. said:
Terry, I appreciate your patience to try to enlighten such stubborn point of view self-centered in something that reminds me some song lyrics in my native language, which say... "um mundo que acabou p'ra não ter de mudar" (by Sétima Legião*) in english, something like: "a world that ended in order to avoid to change" ;-)


* http://www.ouvirmusica.com.br/setima-legiao/513418/#mais-acessadas/513418
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Yeah - it's been a slow day. This is a good way to create amusement. Seems like nobody wants to rent my Scarlet all of a sudden. :wink:
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I think that's only true up to a point.

People will pick a camera. And then they'll shop for rental prices. I don't think anyone opens a rental catalogue and goes... "hmmm Epic is $100 cheaper per day than the Alexa. Let's shoot our project on that." People choose features/look first and price is often a distant concern as long as it's reasonable. I have never heard a pre-production meeting mention price when discussing the technical aspects: cameras, lenses etc.

On the other hand if they decide to shoot Epic they will probably shop around for a rental rate. If one company buys it for $20k and one for $40k they'll both need to align on pricing.
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Yes, exactly how it works. People chose a camera, then shop for who is renting it. Even on your own prods, where you are renting it to yourself on the budgets you show your clients, you have to more or less match the going rate for a similar package in your town from other mainstream vendors, but only for the same camera, not for other brands - that would not make sense.

A last word to Emmanuel - this new changed way of doing things that I apparently won't embrace, as illustrated by that insulting piece of music you so kindly shared, does it involve my sleeping in my car like you do on shoots? Because if it does you can keep your wonderful new approach to filmmaking. I'll stick with my 5K digital "old fashioned" professional approach where everybody gets paid fuily, even the intern P.A.s, and completing shoots does not abuse the goodwill of friends and family.
 
Emanuel A. said:
I obviously disagree. First off, the post is not mine. But if I was the original poster, I wouldn't feel what you are making mention.
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Obviously.

Emanuel A. said:
Where's your humor? Nowhere :)
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It got temporarily misplaced behind a pillow on the back seat.

Emanuel A. said:
The problem is when we take ourselves too much serious, there's no place for change. Just error.
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Excellent.
Now please apply the same reasoning on your refusal to accept other people's view, in thorough explanations offered by Rob, Milan and James.

Emanuel A. said:
Moreover, we are not discussing people, but arguments. It looks like one side feels their interest attacked.
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No, one side offered valid explanations of their concerns, based on long year experience in their business.
And got slammed for offering it.

Emanuel A. said:
I don't know about you, but I've given a lot of my time to this RED project outside of here. I also have my goal. To see this company in good company, not hanging in defective strategies ;-)
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That is commendable.
 
Stop it, Hrvoje. I won't even respond. It is childish. And you are not on cinematography.com forums :)
 
correct me if I'm wrong but in any rental business you should get in on the product when the price is new. what does this statement mean? when A product first comes out it has a price (new price), buy it and start to rent it out right away. or when the price drops it's also a new price, invest in it (if you believe in the product and start renting it out). in this case (with the EPIC)vthe rental houses have had 2 years to make their money back. if you haven't been able to do so then focus on your marketing and business strategy, cause I'm sure that needs some tweaking.

as for new buyers who will be investing at the new price and trying to recoup their money. you will be getting in at a lower price but you have the disadvantage of a higher number of competing products. so you in fact are probably taking a bigger gamble by investing in the product but you're also getting in at a cheaper price.

if you bought your product (in this case the EPIC) in the last 6 to 8 months and are complaining about not making your investment back before the price drop, then you unfortunately got in too late. hopefully you will not make that mistake again and be one of the first to get DRAGON and start recouping your money right away. you're bad timing is no one else's fault. it's just what it is, bad timing. it happens.

don't mean to offend anyone but I think we can all agree that we're getting really bored with reading about how rental business is gonna be affected. some have tried the nice guy approach of trying to calm you guys down and some have been out right rude with the rental guys. but at some point we just don't wanna hear it anymore. start a new thread, call it "I'm a renter and I hate this price war or adjustment thing going on in the market" so the rest of us can keep chatting about what may be to come without hearing about the rental market anymore.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
A last word to Emmanuel - this new changed way of doing things that I apparently won't embrace, as illustrated by that insulting piece of music you so kindly shared, does it involve my sleeping in my car like you do on shoots? Because if it does you can keep your wonderful new approach to filmmaking. I'll stick with my 5K digital "old fashioned" professional approach where everybody gets paid fuily, even the intern P.A.s, and completing shoots does not abuse the goodwill of friends and family.
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Rob, you misspell my name :) Come on, insulting piece of what?! That is nothing related to you. On your argument? Yes, but far away to be even close on your picture, give me a break :-) Where did you get that I sleep in my car on shoots? Because I already did it? Yes, if necessary. But it doesn't mean I'd do it for life. We need to change, you know? ;-)


PS:
My kudos for your last line, you are in good shape :D
But do you have any idea on my way to do it? LOL
(I won't forget to link to your post when necessary ;)
 
A couple of people on here need to chill out. On the plus side, we are getting ever closer to 100 pages of comments on an announcement that hasn't even been made yet. bravo :)
 
RED epic has to keep level on the sony f65 and the Arri Alexa.

I am not so concerned about the price, but rather the standard which RED is a holding to the Epic.
if they want to compete against these other cameras it's not a good sign.

If one day all of a sudden RED goes look our cameras are as cheap as sony F5 http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-highend/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-show-highend-F5.shtml
and we deliver more. Sorry that is not going fly. As long as they hold their standards against the best cameras out there I am happy.

There are still a couple potentials with the RED Epic which need to be sorted out , I hope RED keeps it's eyes on it.
HDRX - although the dynamic range HDRX mathematically is better than arri Alexa dynamic range : DOPs are still going for ALEXA because it's not practical at this moment to use HDRX.
These are potentials which need to delivered.
 
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Timur Civan said:
I dream and pray for a Proxymodule/in out combo, minus the wirelss. 7K or so would be a great price. The meisler is incredibly expensive for the average user.....
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This would be sweetness. Hopefully, this is very, very, very close to release.
 
charles lim yi yong said:
i thought red epic is up there with arri alexa - why are we racing to the bottom?
if they want to drop drop the prices on the modules and the add ons, that would be nice.
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Because if they don't undercut they won't survive yet. But Sony has enough money to to match this strategy. But a number of these companies could not handle too well prices too low that threaten the evil hierarchy of models of they have. Where, if they did what I advised, and had models from $1000-$5k (pocket and Scarlet) setup for ENG workflow, and selectable consumer operation mode, and 10-20k pro cameras, it would undercut most of Sony's upper consumer, prosumer and professional cameras, but they would have too much invested to let the hierarchy go. The reduced volume would put their manufacturing costs right up, while increasing their the cost per unit of their existing support network, let alone the costs of the stockpile of pre ordered parts. They would be lucky if even the PlayStation 3 could keep them afloat. It would be the same for a number of companies that charge a lot. But that was yesterday year.

Sony and other companies need to adjust for the challenge now, as there will be a number of cheaper challengers coming. It is like it is inevitable. This will keep going until models reflect true costs, at that point the only way to be be competitive is to offer higher quality and features, that low cost competitors can not add with out drastically increasing their prices and loading market share. Put it this way, you would rather buy a camera from Sony or Red for an extra 25-50%, 25% in top end, than brand S..t that is almost rubbish. Sony could have been brought down anytime over the last 5 years from such simultaneous attacks on Cameras (or any other big expense profitable segment nearly) and Gaming console, ones a potential big liability, the other is the cash cow. Much of their media devices market has been undercut already. They are open to this threat in many markets, except maybe sensor technology etc. If the consumer shifts focus to better or cheaper product in a number of markets they are left holding the expense. Unfortunately they have decided on a ten year cell model plan for the PlayStation, that leaves that vulnerable too, and might not be able to save the company again.

One of the problems with protectionist policies and strategies, apart from being potentially undermined in price, is they add large expense that is held if undermined.

What they need to do, is restructure support, distribution, and manufacturing to fit in with the shift in price paradigm. They need to get rid of as many models so that the top models reflect true costs plus 50%, and try to hold that margin with quality, feature and brand. Everything else is squashed underneath. This will mean, eventually, maybe two quality value money models for each market segment, a lower end and an upper end in that market, and any additional models to accommodate different filming uses that are needed (these are sub markets, such as the video journalism is in dslr). Multiple use styles can be integrated into a single model where possible, without interfering with each other. Now the customer is left with a handful of clear quality choices per brand, of which they might decide down to between two choices in that brand. The whole idea is too not leave much room for competitors to complete on price or quality. This hinders new true competitors, because there is little room for them in the first place. A new real competitor will then need large volume parts and long term backing to get into the market, because low volume will push their expense up too much (please note, volume generic chipset parts, such as Ambarella's enable individual low volume camera manufacture, as they are a main development cost).

So, what do people think, because ultimately Red is going to have to be involved in this as an upmarket competitor?
 
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