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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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No Iain that's not a price drop on the C300 its an ex demo price of £ 7995.00 + tax, still £ 8650 + tax new
 
John semikian said:
so if Sony decides not to announce their prices, will RED still announce their new prices within the next 48 hours?
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Who knows ? I think this finally puts the notion that their is not a price war going on in the industry firmly to bed.
Until now it was cloaked in half taik but things must be getting serious !

Max M. said:
wow, how can they already have prices, F5 for €15000, quite a good price
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I would take this with a grain of salt Max, may be a leak to see what Red has planned, Sony can
always claim it was a mistake and they never made an official announcement, who knows ?
 
Joshua Raven said:
Good point, Mike. The key here is the debayering technology. As cool as the RedRocket is, for a PCI card, it is ancient - and you can build an entire 16 core PC for the same price. There have been plenty of threads asking for a new RedRocket or opening up development of GPU debayering, and you can be sure Red is actively working on such an obvious bottleneck, but playing these kinds of developments close to the chest are just good business tactics on their part right now. The technology is readily available to make the RedRocket 2 many times more powerful with monitor output functionality, and it really shouldn't cost more than a GTX 690. I can just imagine the outcry when the new card is released. It's cheaper! And faster, with more functionality! What are you trying to do, Red? Bankrupt me? :willy_nilly:
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yup I agree.. there's gotta be a way to get a REDROCKET 2 out there for $2k that can do what the REDRocket can do. it's time to update that piece of technology and drop the price on it. or just drop the price on them. if people cry about the price drop you just gotta ignore it. it sucks, it's a fact of life, sorry, and move on.

but anyway this got off topic. I'm really curious to see who will announce new prices first Sony or RED.
 
RayFrisby said:
Could be a ploy to see how much Red are willing to charge who knows ?
At this stage I think Sony are engaged in a staring competition with Red to see
who blinks first. Exciting times !
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Ray I agree with everything you said on here so far, except for this. why would company "A" as a ploy, put out a rumor that they are willing to go real low with their price (like $18K)? that may actually push Company "B" to announce their new price to be "$17K" which then would force Company "A" to announce a $17k price or a little lower. I don't think this is a ploy. it may be bad info but I doubt Sony wants RED to go as low as they can, that will only cause them to kill their own price. (that's why RED should do it, lol ;) ) ... first and foremost I'M A CONSUMER so the lower the better for me.
 
I have to say (I'm an Epic renter - never got quite taken by Scarlet as I need the higher frame rates - and I would rather own than rent but I'm a stills guy shooting some motion) I'm really excited by the cheaper manufacturing price drop. As someone sitting on the sidelines I could purchase F55 or Epic (if the price was right) but which would I choose?

Having been part of this incredible forum, for a couple of years, shot on the camera, attended REDucation and can't see any other manufacturer offering a level of support and upgrade as a potential purchaser, to me, the choice is simple.

I do understand peoples upset at having bought a camera at a certain price and now it's much cheaper but not wanting to be harsh that's just life, business, technology and being part of the advancement of science. When I bought my first digital back for stills it cost me in excess of £25,000.00. Two years later the same quality was available for £6000.00! It was a serious lesson to learn as I had bought it on the basis of a three year business plan. The saving grace was that because I adopted the new technology I actually paid for it in the first 12months. Tech has moved on an now it's not quite so simple. The waters are muddied and my advice would be unless you are sure you can recoup your money - rent!

With this possible price drop it may well work for me and I will go into it if the figures stack up. While I know the prices may yet drop again in the future I can be certain in my knowledge that this is the best product to buy. Which is why I'm still with the same company, for my stills, who sold me a digital back for £25000.00. They had the best product then - and still do now - albeit cheaper. That's life.


Funds available, on motion I would go RED every time. I for one can't wait for the revised price announcement. For those of you who have already purchased - feel safe in the knowledge that you bought the best product available at the time and while you might have spent more on it - it is still the best today.

Oh and my 25K digital back - I'm still using, it still shoots mind blowing images, just slightly slower than the latest model - some seven years later! (It stills shoots an image so over specced that is impossible in terms of resolution to print on a page of magazine A4 paper), sounds a bit like broadcasting 4K?
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Let's face it, Epic rentals are going to lose out to Sony at some point if new Sony's are priced competitively and Epic prices don't come down. A lot of the hand-wringing here about RED lowering prices is irrelevant if it is Sony that starts winning rentals from Arri.
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Don't Alexa rentals cost more than EPIC rentals TODAY? Is rental or unit pricing really the determining factor there?

I think the issue here is that if RED reduces the BRAIN pricing, that does nothing at all in helping us compete with Alexa. Its items like the Meizler module, the media, and any workflow solutions they have in the works (Red Rocket 2 anyone?) that will win this for RED.

That's all my opinion ofcourse. In the end, I know little of behind-the-scenes, so who knows. I just hope RED has considered this viewpoint strongly.
 
Ray I agree with everything you said on here so far, except for this. why would company "A" as a ploy, put out a rumor that they are willing to go real low with their price (like $18K)? that may actually push Company "B" to announce their new price to be "$17K" which then would force Company "A" to announce a $17k price or a little lower. I don't think this is a ploy. it may be bad info but I doubt Sony wants RED to go as low as they can, that will only cause them to kill their own price. (that's why RED should do it, lol ;) )
Click to expand...

Just a thought but maybe to see what Red's bottom price is. They may then decide to charge a few grand more in the knowledge that once they are close to Red's price their Features - Workflow - the Sony name will allow them to.
If they know how far they can squeeze a company then maybe they feel they know how close they are to breaking.
Could Sony afford to engage in break even - below cost selling for a period of time ? these are questions we don't like to ask but are a reality in business.

This is all just speculation Nikhil as we will never really know the motivations behind a companies decision. But if it is a price war it will be about survival
and somethings got to give ! Again who knows ?
 
RayFrisby said:
Just a thought but maybe to see what Red's bottom price is. They may then decide to charge a few grand more in the knowledge that once they are close to Red
their Features - Workflow - Sony name will allow them to.
If they know how far they can squeeze a company then maybe they feel they know how close they are to breaking.
Could Sony afford to engage in break even - below cost selling for a period of time ? these are questions we don't like to ask but are a reality in business.
Click to expand...

aahh good point.. didn't think of them actually might be willing to take a loss just to kill competition. I don't think that will be the case but like you said who knows.. to tell you the truth I think RED does have a great reputation (I'm not just saying that cause I love the EPIC) but also the word is out there about the workflow being a little more of a hassle (I for one think it's absolutely worth it).. I'm still of the opinion that RED has been selling that beast for over $30k for a while now, they have drastically improved manufacturing costs (per Jim and Jarred), and they have a new beast coming out soon, so they should drop the price on the EPIC as low as they can while still making a profit and focus on the new beast and improving workflow. Capitalize on your two year head start over the competition and get the price point to a point they couldn't compete with even if they were willing to take a small loss. Keep in mind I also don't think that the new Dragon cameras can be overpriced (over $34k) when they come out just cause they shoot in 6k and have 1 or 2 more stops of DR or whatever it is. I think the cinecamera world will forever be changed after these cameras come out (not to mention CANON's affordable 1DC coming out soon) and if you want to play it safe and not feel bad about an investment just don't buy one for another 2 or 3 years cause prices are just gonna drop some more. me on the other hand I'll take me an EPIC for the right price and not worry about another 20% - 30% price drop next year.

okay now I really want to know if we are gonna hear any prices in the next 48 hours. realistically with Sony's Cameras still 4 months away I'm not sure they need to announce any prices until December.
 
To be honest John everything is just speculation at this point, but I think it fair to explore all possibilities.
Like I said I HAVE NO IDEA IF THIS IS THE CASE IT'S JUST SPECULATION AT THE MOMENT but worth considering.

Up to now I think most of the camera companies have been engaged in a phony war, talking about features, enhancements,
benefits etc... but if this is over and a full scale price war is underway then IMO it will be all about survival.
If the Sony F55 turns out to be 20K then I believe that's what we will see.
IMO I just don't see the market being able to sustain all these different cameras.

My 2 Cents
 
I'm grateful for Jannard putting his neck out a bit and starting this thread, I had no idea that Sony was going to announce the F5, nor do I really keep track on the other manufacturer's development pipeline.
I think he is just giving us a heads up that there is going to be a dog fight, and RED is ready for it.
 
I agree that RED should not reduce the price on the EPIC body. Personally, I'd prefer it if they would take those "obscene profits" and put them back into more quality control and maybe some 24 hour tech support.
...or how about an EPIC to EPIC-645 trade in program! :ihih:

In the end, they're going to do what best fits their business model and I sure can't blame them for that. Business is Business.





My prediction is that Sony will NOT provide much competition for the EPIC or the ALEXA with what they have introduced today.

The ALEXA will continue to dominate the markets they do today.

The EPIC may have a shot at regaining some ground with MM/Dragon combo, but it will depend mainly on exactly what gets recorded to the RED MINIMAG. If it's a high quality PRORES image with a "look" that competes with what ARRI produces, then the game may change a bit.

...if not, then things will pretty much stay as they are.
 
Joshua Raven said:
Good point, Mike. The key here is the debayering technology. As cool as the RedRocket is, for a PCI card, it is ancient - and you can build an entire 16 core PC for the same price. There have been plenty of threads asking for a new RedRocket or opening up development of GPU debayering, and you can be sure Red is actively working on such an obvious bottleneck, but playing these kinds of developments close to the chest are just good business tactics on their part right now. The technology is readily available to make the RedRocket 2 many times more powerful with monitor output functionality, and it really shouldn't cost more than a GTX 690. I can just imagine the outcry when the new card is released. It's cheaper! And faster, with more functionality! What are you trying to do, Red? Bankrupt me? :willy_nilly:
Click to expand...

Apples and oranges. Your rate is not dependent on what card you have in your computer. Producers generally don't care what on your DIT cart as long as you get the job done. Cameras are different, especially for owners/operators.

But I agree with you bout the RR, I have bought one and would welcome a cheaper and more capable RR2.
 
Another last thought: the more some of us can recoup the 27500 or 34500 brain costs (let's say 40-50K total packages) because the market is not flooded with cheap Epics to bring rentals way down, the more we will be able to afford a Dragon upgrade in large numbers.

No money in for all us Epic owners from our gear will mean that financing will be tough fo not just the sensor, but the upgrade of all our computer systems to handle 6K - already 5K is a strain even on a 12 core system, unless you have 2 Rockets.
 
Milan Spasic said:
Apples and oranges. Your rate is not dependent on what card you have in your computer. Producers generally don't care what on your DIT cart as long as you get the job done. Cameras are different, especially for owners/operators.

But I agree with you bout the RR, I have bought one and would welcome a cheaper and more capable RR2.
Click to expand...

So would I - and I am about to buy one. It really is not the same as it does not affect day rates/revenue in any negative way. In fact a better RR card in many people's hands would help us rent our Epic (and be allowed to use it on our own shoots) way more often. No one complains about the image quality, but 5K workflow, while extremely powerful, is too much for some post arrangements and deadlines at present. Solid affordable RR cards are the way forward.
 
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I can't help but point out that rentals for Epic don't exist in a vacuum. Does not the price of every other roughly comparable camera influence the market? If Panasonic comes out with a SUPER HVX-8000 that steps all over everyone else's technology, all for $4995, would RED holding their price save the day for the Epic rental market. Like it or not, RED can't dictate the market; they have to work within it.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I can't help but point out that rentals for Epic don't exist in a vacuum. Does not the price of every other roughly comparable camera influence the market? If Panasonic comes out with a SUPER HVX-8000 that steps all over everyone else's technology, all for $4995, would RED holding their price save the day for the Epic rental market. Like it or not, RED can't dictate the market; they have to work within it.
Click to expand...

I think that's only true up to a point.

People will pick a camera. And then they'll shop for rental prices. I don't think anyone opens a rental catalogue and goes... "hmmm Epic is $100 cheaper per day than the Alexa. Let's shoot our project on that." People choose features/look first and price is often a distant concern as long as it's reasonable. I have never heard a pre-production meeting mention price when discussing the technical aspects: cameras, lenses etc.

On the other hand if they decide to shoot Epic they will probably shop around for a rental rate. If one company buys it for $20k and one for $40k they'll both need to align on pricing.
 
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