Joshua Brown
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Ergo...
- Thread starter Jannard
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Shawn Nelson
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Hi Jim,
Not to challenge you, because I think you're on the right path with the ergonomics here...
I just thought i'd post this. Admittedly, I haven't used this rig, but it sure looks like it'd be nice. It also looks a bit front heavy, so not the 'balanced' pic you're wanting, but I love how snugly the camera is built around the shoulder.
Not to challenge you, because I think you're on the right path with the ergonomics here...
I just thought i'd post this. Admittedly, I haven't used this rig, but it sure looks like it'd be nice. It also looks a bit front heavy, so not the 'balanced' pic you're wanting, but I love how snugly the camera is built around the shoulder.
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Jannard
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Hi Jim,
Not to challenge you, because I think you're on the right path with the ergonomics here...
I just thought i'd post this. Admittedly, I haven't used this rig, but it sure looks like it'd be nice. It also looks a bit front heavy, so not the 'balanced' pic you're wanting, but I love how snugly the camera is built around the shoulder.
Balanced version should be posted later today or tomorrow...
Jim
Lauri Kettunen
Well-known member
Jim, any chance you could easily make say a 2 feet a cable between the brain and the rest of the system. I believe all wildlife people would find that highly useful. In additon, perhaps in some cases it made sense to have only the brain, evf and lense on the shoulder and the rest in a rucksack or on a "belt bag".
StephenMurphy
Well-known member
Actualy Shawn thats a pretty balanced handheld setup. 235 body, with a 435 400ft mag balancing the weight of the Master Prime. The on board assistants monitor is the only thing thats awkward. The combination of the heavier lens and mag give the 235 enough mass to be stable enough for subtle work yet still relatively lightweight for extended shooting. Its a good example.
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Jannard
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A 235 with a Master Prime and a 400' mag is front heavy. Let it go and it will drop like a rock on your right big toe. There is a big difference between balanced and comfortable. What some are asking here is for mythology. We'll deliver. Stay tuned.
Jim
Rudi Herbert
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hunterrichards
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Not sure if your being sarcastic but anything aaton is a good reference for balance...
Penelope:
Weight: 17.7lbs (with film and battery) + 4.8lbs (masterprime) = 22.5lbs
Price: A whole lot more than I want to spend!
But I must say, the new cameras you guys are making are already leaps above the red one as far as balance goes. I dont doubt you can deliver a balanced camera system, just make sure thats way up there on the to do list- which Im sure it is.
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Jeff Kilgroe
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I love the Tangohead handles in that picture there. I'd love to see something similar from RED... :whistling: Then again, I have the Mantis and love it too.
Steve Gibby
Red Savant
Even with RED One I've had no problems balancing the setup for shoulder mounted shooting. IMO it just involves analyzing what you're going to shoot, factoring in the resolution, lens type, and accessories needed to get the shot, then setting the rig up accordingly. In non-union environments those decisions and ergonomics are relatively easy to decide on, set up, and execute.
Of the three types of lenses used on RED One, cine lenses are obviously heavier and bulkier for their focal lengths than 35mm stills lenses and B4 lenses. Thus unless it is short primes you're using on a cine rig setup, they're harder to achieve balance. Rigs set up using 35mm stills and B4 lenses are almost always easier to balance - unless you insist on front loading them with a MB and FF.
For shoulder held cine rigs, to avoid too much weight on the front, I prefer lightweight clip on matte boxes and do without a follow focus if possible. For 35mm stills shoulder held rigs I invariably don't use a matte box or follow focus. For B4 rig setups I never use a matte box or follow focus. All focusing with my 35mm stills and B4 rigs is eye focusing - again thus keeping the need for front of rig accessories down to a minimum. All 35mm stills and B4 filtering is via screw-on filters.
It seems to me that it is the straight cine-style shooters, using heavy cine zooms, and insisting on (or needing) heavy accessories on the front of the rig (MB, FF), which have the most challenges balancing a RED One (and Epic/Scarlet to come) rig. Again, if you can get by with a lighter clip on MB and do without a FF the front end load lightens considerably.
Here's some pics of a hybrid 35mm stills cine/EFP shoulder rig, and a straight B4 RED shoulder rig.
The total rig weight of the 35mm stills rig, including ET Mantis, is 20 pounds. The center of gravity is low, EVF is in the eyeline of the lens, battery and drive are mounted on smart side to counterbalance the EVF. Battery is also rearward to counterbalance the lens and EVF. The entire rig slides front/back and right/left on the Mantis to achieve perfect balance. The shoulder pad angle is easily adjustable to your own shoulder shape. On your shoulder it sits perfectly balanced, front/back, and right/left.
The total rig weight of the B4 rig pictured is 22 pounds. That is a Fujinon HA22x7.8 HD EFP/ENG zoom mounted. I high-mounted the battery on the top-back to counterbalance the lens. The lens is sizable, but only weighs 3.5 pounds - thus the battery and battery mount bracket effectively counterbalance the lens. The drive, ET Speedy Clamp, and ET Shock Mount counterbalance the EVF. Again, the rig is very well balanced on your shoulder - basically it feels like an F900 or Varicam on your shoulder.
Epic and Scarlet are even smaller and more modular than RED One, so if I've been able to balance my shoulder rigs easily with RED One, the extreme modularity of Epic and Scarlet should make balancing and and COG issues even easier to solve.
I also think a lot of guys on RED User are so used to traditionally using unibody or near unibody camera systems and that's their comfort zone - thus they're having a hard time wrapping their heads around the myriad of setup options which will be available for Epic and Scarlet which easily solve COG and ergonomics concerns.
Obviously in large crew, straight cine style, added accessory, union situations there is a more narrow range of crew, accessory, and use options that make it more challenging to balance rigs. But I think that once Epic is experimented with in those situations, the best setup parameters for them will surface very rapidly.
Of the three types of lenses used on RED One, cine lenses are obviously heavier and bulkier for their focal lengths than 35mm stills lenses and B4 lenses. Thus unless it is short primes you're using on a cine rig setup, they're harder to achieve balance. Rigs set up using 35mm stills and B4 lenses are almost always easier to balance - unless you insist on front loading them with a MB and FF.
For shoulder held cine rigs, to avoid too much weight on the front, I prefer lightweight clip on matte boxes and do without a follow focus if possible. For 35mm stills shoulder held rigs I invariably don't use a matte box or follow focus. For B4 rig setups I never use a matte box or follow focus. All focusing with my 35mm stills and B4 rigs is eye focusing - again thus keeping the need for front of rig accessories down to a minimum. All 35mm stills and B4 filtering is via screw-on filters.
It seems to me that it is the straight cine-style shooters, using heavy cine zooms, and insisting on (or needing) heavy accessories on the front of the rig (MB, FF), which have the most challenges balancing a RED One (and Epic/Scarlet to come) rig. Again, if you can get by with a lighter clip on MB and do without a FF the front end load lightens considerably.
Here's some pics of a hybrid 35mm stills cine/EFP shoulder rig, and a straight B4 RED shoulder rig.
The total rig weight of the 35mm stills rig, including ET Mantis, is 20 pounds. The center of gravity is low, EVF is in the eyeline of the lens, battery and drive are mounted on smart side to counterbalance the EVF. Battery is also rearward to counterbalance the lens and EVF. The entire rig slides front/back and right/left on the Mantis to achieve perfect balance. The shoulder pad angle is easily adjustable to your own shoulder shape. On your shoulder it sits perfectly balanced, front/back, and right/left.
The total rig weight of the B4 rig pictured is 22 pounds. That is a Fujinon HA22x7.8 HD EFP/ENG zoom mounted. I high-mounted the battery on the top-back to counterbalance the lens. The lens is sizable, but only weighs 3.5 pounds - thus the battery and battery mount bracket effectively counterbalance the lens. The drive, ET Speedy Clamp, and ET Shock Mount counterbalance the EVF. Again, the rig is very well balanced on your shoulder - basically it feels like an F900 or Varicam on your shoulder.
Epic and Scarlet are even smaller and more modular than RED One, so if I've been able to balance my shoulder rigs easily with RED One, the extreme modularity of Epic and Scarlet should make balancing and and COG issues even easier to solve.
I also think a lot of guys on RED User are so used to traditionally using unibody or near unibody camera systems and that's their comfort zone - thus they're having a hard time wrapping their heads around the myriad of setup options which will be available for Epic and Scarlet which easily solve COG and ergonomics concerns.
Obviously in large crew, straight cine style, added accessory, union situations there is a more narrow range of crew, accessory, and use options that make it more challenging to balance rigs. But I think that once Epic is experimented with in those situations, the best setup parameters for them will surface very rapidly.
Mitch Gross
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Hey, don't buy that Penelope, rent it from Abel. Now available -- the first in the US!
Stephen Williams
Well-known member
Hi,
That is the reason that Arri offered the last superspeeds made, at half price to those who bought a 235 body. Horses for courses.
Stephen
StephenMurphy
Well-known member
If a camera gets dropped it was the grip not me
It may not be technically "balanced" but it is, as you put it, comfortable to handhold while retaining enough stability for an operator to work on long lenses. I look forward to seeing, and using, whatever solution you come up with for the Epic.
jonathan homer vargas
Well-known member
:gun: jim, do you have shooting a movie with the scarlet:shiftyph34r:
preview
preview
Birns and Sawyer
REDuser Sponsor
Birns has a similar handheld setup to this one, and ours gets used at a bunch of different rental houses. It's personally my favorite way to do handheld.
If anybody wants a quote, send me a pm or email tsutherland-at-birnsandsawyer.com
david farland
Well-known member
Here you go........
price, umm..not sure how much I'd get for it...what do you reckon?
ps: 2nd pic..had too many parts, so got rid of them!
Maybe I'll swap it for that Aaton, Mr Birn&Sawyer is selling, looks like
his has an okay lens.
Dave
picked it up in a dumpster round Lake Forest..still seems to work okay thou, weighs about 21lbs.
price, umm..not sure how much I'd get for it...what do you reckon?
ps: 2nd pic..had too many parts, so got rid of them!
Maybe I'll swap it for that Aaton, Mr Birn&Sawyer is selling, looks like
his has an okay lens.
Dave
David Litchfield
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With the talk of it being front heavy, could the modules be moved further back over the shoulder so theres a gap between brain and modules, connecting with cables as opposed to the current lego-like connections?
David Litchfield
David Litchfield
bernd katzmarczyk
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can´t wait to see the first moving pictures:nerd: ergo looks really good.
Roberto Lequeux
Well-known member
Here you go........
picked it up in a dumpster round Lake Forest..still seems to work okay thou, weighs about 21lbs.
price, umm..not sure how much I'd get for it...what do you reckon?
Maybe I'll swap it for that Aaton, Mr Birn&Sawyer is selling, looks like
his has an okay lens.
Dave
Exactly! Good job Dave!
It obviously depends on how you mount these... it really looks like you can do next to anything with rails on the top, bottom, the modules and brain being a little square straight line... it is like @%!# legos people, use YOUR brains... Red sure is using theirs, and willing to sell them to your ingrate asses for less than a 1/5 of what the big bulky non modular F35 would cost you! WITH LENSES AND SUPPORT... am I a complete idiot? Am I missing something?
(obviously this wasn't directed at everyone posting, not was it directed at anyone in particular)
Blair S. Paulsen
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Call me crazy...
Call me crazy...
I was pushing this concept a couple of months ago. My idea was a "lego" piece that was flat across the top, same width as the other modules (maybe a shallow neck cutout, shoulder cutout on the bottom with pad, end to end length of maybe 6", internal cabling to connect the brain to the other modules, brackets and multi-pin interface(s) on the ends to match the other "lego" modules. Snap into place for shooting off the shoulder, remove for other configs. Its basically a spacer with no function other than ergonomics - I promote the concept because I like a lower COG and it would keep the rig cleaner with less cabling, rods, brackets, etc.
Side note: I have not tried to build a mock-up or anything, but ideally the lens axis would be low enough that the EVF would actually live above the lens so the whole rig would ride closer to the shooters body center.
Or maybe I'm just bonkers.
Cheers-
Call me crazy...
I was pushing this concept a couple of months ago. My idea was a "lego" piece that was flat across the top, same width as the other modules (maybe a shallow neck cutout, shoulder cutout on the bottom with pad, end to end length of maybe 6", internal cabling to connect the brain to the other modules, brackets and multi-pin interface(s) on the ends to match the other "lego" modules. Snap into place for shooting off the shoulder, remove for other configs. Its basically a spacer with no function other than ergonomics - I promote the concept because I like a lower COG and it would keep the rig cleaner with less cabling, rods, brackets, etc.
Side note: I have not tried to build a mock-up or anything, but ideally the lens axis would be low enough that the EVF would actually live above the lens so the whole rig would ride closer to the shooters body center.
Or maybe I'm just bonkers.
Cheers-