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Epic-X-S35 and Epic S35

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David (dudi) Namir

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Trying to avoid unseen pitfalls
Can anyone just tell if there is a difference between Epic-X-S35 and Epic S35. Stage four is defined as for Epic S35 while stages one to three are for Epic-X S35.
Also in the order of camera release it is distinguish as Epic-X-S35 and Epic S35.
I assume that they are the same but can anyone can confirm it?
Thanks
 
Only difference is the Epic-X will receive the best CMOS chip slices. Also, Redcode compression goes up to 250 on Epic-X.

Think of it like computer chips. Out of a single waffer, only the best slices get rated to run at the top speed. And if you want to overclock, you definitely want a premium slice.
 
Curran Giddens said:
Only difference is the Epic-X will receive the best CMOS chip slices. Also, Redcode compression goes up to 250 on Epic-X.

Think of it like computer chips. Out of a single waffer, only the best slices get rated to run at the top speed. And if you want to overclock, you definitely want a premium slice.
Click to expand...
So stage 1 2 & 3 get the Epic X S35 while stage 4 get only the Epic S35?
So Red One owners get the best?
The best of the first round.
There will be other rounds where Epic FF35 and other types will be involved.
 
Curran Giddens said:
Only difference is the Epic-X will receive the best CMOS chip slices. Also, Redcode compression goes up to 250 on Epic-X.

Think of it like computer chips. Out of a single waffer, only the best slices get rated to run at the top speed. And if you want to overclock, you definitely want a premium slice.
Click to expand...

Can you provide a link to this?

My understanding is that the Epic S35 and Epic-X will be identical from a technical aspect. My belief is that they will be the same camera, shy of the name and bonus modules included.

I would be very careful stating that Epic S35 cameras will be inferior (in any way) to Epic-Xs if that is not the case.
 
What Curran has posted is based on very old information, like from 6+ months ago. We have no idea if any of that is still true or not. It seems as if the REDCODE numbers have changed in the mean time and I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that both the EPIC-X and EPIC-S35 will be the same. Just the X model being the upgrade model for RED One owners.

There may still be some truth to the best sensors. Essentially what that probably means is, if RED receives a shipment of 100 sensors and needs to allocate 50 of them to EPIC-X cameras, they will profile all of the sensors and take the best 50. All sensors have minute flaws, some more than others, but they will all have to meet some level of quality to even be used. On the end user side of things, I doubt anyone would ever be able to tell.
 
Peter Matthes said:
I would be very careful stating that Epic S35 cameras will be inferior (in any way) to Epic-Xs if that is not the case.
Click to expand...

You're right. This may not be the case anymore. This was back when the Epic-X had a different color scheme than Epic S35. The -X had titanium panels on it that were anodized purplish-grey. Will see if I can find a pic...
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
What Curran has posted is based on very old information, like from 6+ months ago. We have no idea if any of that is still true or not. It seems as if the REDCODE numbers have changed in the mean time and I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that both the EPIC-X and EPIC-S35 will be the same. Just the X model being the upgrade model for RED One owners.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff.

That is my understanding as well.
 
Curran Giddens said:
You're right. This may not be the case anymore. This was back when the Epic-X had a different color scheme than Epic S35. The -X had titanium panels on it that were anodized purplish-grey. Will see if I can find a pic...
Click to expand...

I suspect the sensors in the Epic S35 will be good. Reds reputation will be based on the worst sensor they ever sell!
 
First off, total speculation on my part here. But if one steps back and looks at the business side, when you order 1000 sensors there are some in the sweet zone and some in the not-so sweet zone. What do you do with a sensor thats on the edge of the quality requirement, but doesn't truly meet the 5k/EPIC quality requirement? You can't reject it because it met the standards, but you can't use it in your high end product. Sound business practices tells you to find a market for the ones you have to accept, but can't use, so the M-X upgrade ends up a win-win for everyone.
 
And it makes no sense to offer a "superior" product in the Epic-X vs. S35. Back in the day when RED One trade-ins for future Epic models seemed to be a perpetual thing, this made more sense. But now, if I buy an Epic-X as a RED One owner and then down the road I need another one, I'd be mad as hell if I couldn't buy another matching camera and had to settle for an inferior model.
 
Why keep the two separate names? Just because one comes with free modules?

None outside of Red would be able to know the difference anyway. Ever notice what looks like a stuck pixel while booting? You won't see that on Epic...
 
Joel Jameson said:
First off, total speculation on my part here. But if one steps back and looks at the business side, when you order 1000 sensors there are some in the sweet zone and some in the not-so sweet zone. What do you do with a sensor thats on the edge of the quality requirement, but doesn't truly meet the 5k/EPIC quality requirement? You can't reject it because it met the standards, but you can't use it in your high end product. Sound business practices tells you to find a market for the ones you have to accept, but can't use, so the M-X upgrade ends up a win-win for everyone.
Click to expand...

When I was a Sony systems integrator, the product manager told me that they did this with their early 250,000 pixel chip. Broadcast cameras could have no defects. Industrial (DXC-3000 and such) could have 3 defective pixels, prosumer more, consumer (Betamovie) even more, and when they got to their first 8mm camcorder - the CCD-M8u - it appeared to have hundreds of defects. Masked of course, but when you panned it would very apparent that their was a problem.

I do remember the Epic-X was supposed to have a "select" chip and while I am sure ALL will have to meet very high standards, you have to wonder what that means for the Mysterium-X upgrade program. To paraphrase Garrison Keillor/Lake Woebegone - "all of the children (chips) CAN'T be above average." Curran, when you mention the best slices do you mean they might have better read speed, dynamic range, ...?
 
Michael Hastings said:
Curran, when you mention the best slices do you mean they might have better read speed, dynamic range, ...?
Click to expand...

No, strictly the number of bad pixels. My R1 has two that you can see while the camera is booting. Of couse they get masked by the time it finishes. We won't see that on the new cameras...
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
And it makes no sense to offer a "superior" product in the Epic-X vs. S35. Back in the day when RED One trade-ins for future Epic models seemed to be a perpetual thing, this made more sense. But now, if I buy an Epic-X as a RED One owner and then down the road I need another one, I'd be mad as hell if I couldn't buy another matching camera and had to settle for an inferior model.
Click to expand...

This is an exceptional point.

There needs to be a standard of sensor quality.

Besides the ethical reasons, identical cameras involved on multi-camera shoots must match perfectly.
 
I highly doubt that they would allow the Epic S35 and Epic-X to have a noticeably different picture - any difference will be very minor, you will just know that whatever tests they run be it speed, heat, sensitivity, whatever came out in the top end of the acceptable scale rather than the middle or bottom.
 
Has anyone recently checked red.com/press?

RED Scarlet FF35 6K exploded view -showing many of the accessory attachments and modules, including: RED DSMC Shoulder Mount, REDhandle, RED Bottom Grip, RED PL Lens Mount, RED Expansion Adaptor, RED I/O Expansion Module, RED Battery Expansion Module, REDmote Control, RED BombEVF, RED 3" LCD, RED 4.8" LCD, RED Top Mount and RED Rails.

There is also!

RED EPIC 617 28K, mammoth 261MP Digital panorama still and motion camera, affording a 6 x 17 cm, 9334 x 28,000 pixel capture at up to 30 frames per second.

I hadn't seen these before so if this is old news, sorry...


6K!
 
Jason Beckwith said:
I find myself more worried about the differences between the Scarlet s35 and the Epic-X s35...
Click to expand...

The difference is $21k. ;)

But seriously, I've been asking myself this same question.
It just doesn't make sense to have two cameras so close by spec and so far apart in price.
I know that high frame rates demand more processing power... but still, we are talking 3x the price difference.
 
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