EPIC-W Newbie Questions

[Giovanny Lago]

What's up guys,

I've had my Epic-W for two months and I've gotten to know my way around it pretty well (to the point where I feel familiar with it and comfortable on set.)

However I haven't been able to find and answer to these questions:


BLACK-SHADING

I guess what I'm asking here is for a general breakdown on how black-shading works on the DSMC-2 bodies?

I upgraded from a C300, and with that camera I had to black balance (with body cap on in a dark environtment) every time the white balance changed dramatically or when ISO was raised or lowered by more than 3 stops. If you didn't do this you would risk getting bizarre noise patterns and inaccurate colors.

Does this need to be done on the Red Epic-w? If so how, and what reasons would you need to do so?

On one project, I shot with the camera over a 6 hour period, and the footage at the end of the day was noticeably noisier than at the start (even though lighting and camera settings didn't change throughout).

Has anyone else experienced this?

I was able to clean up the noise with neat video, but it reminded me of the dark speckled noise I would get on the C300 if I didn't black balance.

How do you black-shade the camera? I've heard that the new DSMC2 bodies have "auto-black shade" but I don't fully understand how that works and if I'm still supposed to routinely check on that from time to time.

In the menu system I've narrowed it to:

Menu > Settings > Maintenance > Calibrate> Sensor

And from there I've applied the two calibration maps that are saved (with the body cap on in a dark room). There is an older one that the camera warns me is out-dated and prompts me to apply the latest calibration map (which I did, but I don't know if this is the right way to do it?)


COLOR SHIFT ISSUE

There was one day where I was flipping through the different looks in the camera (applying different combinations of Video Source, Color space, graded gamma space etc.)

And out of no where, no matter what combination I applied, the camera displayed this bizarre look where all of the mid-tones were INTENSELY orange, and the lows were super blue-ish/teal. I tried changing back and forth between the looks and the camera just suddenly shut off on me.

I didn't turn it back on immediately because it was late and I just decided I would figure out the problem the next day.

The following morning when I turned on the camera, it still displayed this bizarre, orange and blue color shift. This is when I looked into applying the black-shading to the camera, and I encountered all of the concerns I mentioned above^

Since then, the camera has stopped having this problem, but I guess I want to understand what is happening so that I can definitively trouble shoot it next time.


GRADED LOOK ON PLAYBACK

Is it possible to playback the footage with the "graded" gamma applied? I've exhausted trying to figure it out on my own.




I know this is a super long post, but I felt weird spamming the board with three different posts at once.

I appreciate any feedback or insights you guys may have. I've been a longtime reader of the forum, but now that I'm an owner/operator I'm looking forward to actually participating in this community!

 

[Adam Montville]

What's up guys,

I've had my Epic-W for two months and I've gotten to know my way around it pretty well (to the point where I feel familiar with it and comfortable on set.)

However I haven't been able to find and answer to these questions:


BLACK-SHADING

I guess what I'm asking here is for a general breakdown on how black-shading works on the DSMC-2 bodies?

I upgraded from a C300, and with that camera I had to black balance (with body cap on in a dark environtment) every time the white balance changed dramatically or when ISO was raised or lowered by more than 3 stops. If you didn't do this you would risk getting bizarre noise patterns and inaccurate colors.

Does this need to be done on the Red Epic-w? If so how, and what reasons would you need to do so?

On one project, I shot with the camera over a 6 hour period, and the footage at the end of the day was noticeably noisier than at the start (even though lighting and camera settings didn't change throughout).

Has anyone else experienced this?

I was able to clean up the noise with neat video, but it reminded me of the dark speckled noise I would get on the C300 if I didn't black balance.

How do you black-shade the camera? I've heard that the new DSMC2 bodies have "auto-black shade" but I don't fully understand how that works and if I'm still supposed to routinely check on that from time to time.

In the menu system I've narrowed it to:

Menu > Settings > Maintenance > Calibrate> Sensor

And from there I've applied the two calibration maps that are saved (with the body cap on in a dark room). There is an older one that the camera warns me is out-dated and prompts me to apply the latest calibration map (which I did, but I don't know if this is the right way to do it?)


COLOR SHIFT ISSUE

There was one day where I was flipping through the different looks in the camera (applying different combinations of Video Source, Color space, graded gamma space etc.)

And out of no where, no matter what combination I applied, the camera displayed this bizarre look where all of the mid-tones were INTENSELY orange, and the lows were super blue-ish/teal. I tried changing back and forth between the looks and the camera just suddenly shut off on me.

I didn't turn it back on immediately because it was late and I just decided I would figure out the problem the next day.

The following morning when I turned on the camera, it still displayed this bizarre, orange and blue color shift. This is when I looked into applying the black-shading to the camera, and I encountered all of the concerns I mentioned above^

Since then, the camera has stopped having this problem, but I guess I want to understand what is happening so that I can definitively trouble shoot it next time.


GRADED LOOK ON PLAYBACK

Is it possible to playback the footage with the "graded" gamma applied? I've exhausted trying to figure it out on my own.




I know this is a super long post, but I felt weird spamming the board with three different posts at once.

I appreciate any feedback or insights you guys may have. I've been a longtime reader of the forum, but now that I'm an owner/operator I'm looking forward to actually participating in this community!

For an in-depth look into Black Shading on RED cameras, you can look at this thread, but in short, you want to run a new "Auto Blackshade" after each firmware upgrade, or a major temperature/shutter difference since the last black shade was done.

You are correct about the location: Menu > Settings > Maintenance > Calibrate> Sensor

The ones that are listed may be old, so you want to select "New", then a menu comes up and asks "Auto" or "Manual". With Auto, the system creates many blackshades for several shutter speeds, and this process takes about 45mins to an hour. Once completed, you can select several shutter speeds when shooting, and the as long as the T/E is green, there is not a need to run a blackshade. When you switch shutter speeds, the E may turn Yellow, and may take about 5 seconds for the auto black shade to apply and change the E back to green.

Or you can do a "manual" blackshade, which creates a blackshade per shutter speed that is selected. Generally, I would only use this if you are shooting extreme shutters that the Auto may not do, such as 1 SEC exposure.

Then you can switch between the Auto or Manual 1 Sec exposure "profile" in the Maintenance > Calibrate> Sensor menu, and select "Apply"

As of now, if you are shooting with the IPP2 preview, RedWideGamut + Log3g10, then playback will have that "log" look to it. Only if you shoot DC2/RG4 will the playback have the graded look in playback. You can still shoot DC2/RG4 on set, then switch to RedWideGamut + Log3g10 + LUT in post, if you need the graded playback for clients. This is temporary until the full IPP2 is rolled out in a new firmware. (Or if you have a 3rd party monitor capable of using LUTs, you can load the IPP2 LUT on it)

 

[Martin Facci]

Hi Giovanny!

About Blackshading...

Reed this, is pretty straight foward
http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/black-shading-calibration

The TWO things that are relevant to black shading are Temperature and Exposure Time
So, to do it correctly, you have to get the camera to the temperature you want it to be black shade (keeping in mind the places you are going to shoot...) and put the shutter you want to work with.
Puts the lens cap and to be more carefull, cover the lens front with a black cloth.

When you create a map you see this information display as for example, user1__48(shutter)_52c(temperature)_DATE
To keep in mind...If you are going to shoot for example, 24fps and 48fps, you should do one black shade for each configuration because the shutter also changes.

The T (for temperature) and the E (for exposure time) on your camera represents the black shading status. If they are GREEN you should be OK, ORANGE is not recommended and RED you MUST fix it before shoot.

About the right temperature for the sensor...I DO NOT test it myself yet but people here says that 44º works fine.

The difference in the amount of grain may be because as the day goes on, maybe the camera was getting cooler and cooler to a point when you should have change the black shade to a more proper temperature.
Or maybe hotter and hotter... I think you get what i mean.

Regarding the Auto-Blackshading from the EPIC-W, some people (me included) experience green tint in the shadows when using it...In my personal opinion, better to work with manual black shadings at least for now.




About the color shifting...I do not experience something like that.


Graded look on camera, yes, of course you can!
Menu-> Settings -> Look-> Video-
There you can config the look/curve/color space for each video output on the camera. Including the use of 3D LUTS!

Hope this helps!

Good luck with your new camera!

 

[Neil Abeynayake]

Hi Giovanny,

Both Adam and Martin posted excellent advice on "How to calibrate your RED camera". Please allow me to add a few words of wisdom into your post. You spent a large amount of money purchasing your camera. Consider that as an investment into your career, business, work, and future, whatever it is. Hardware investments are a necessary part of our business.

The second part of that investment is achieving knowledge to control and/or handle the new hardware that you purchased. Many people tend to skimp on this area. If you happen to ask; their explanations may range from:

1). Hey, I've used such and such camera for 'x' amount of years.

2). I'm a film school graduate and I've learned how to handle a stinking camera. I can wing this one. No big deal.

3). I worked as an apprentice or an assistant camera operator for a few productions and I know my ABC's around cameras.

4). I am a gadget freak. I know a thing or two about professional camera gear.

5). Don't worry, I know what I am doing.

Etc.

I have been involved in the movie industry directly and indirectly for over 27 years. My background is in Electrical/Electronic engineering as a youngster and computer hardware programming during post graduate studies. I was involved in filming since my teen years. Worked on movie sets while attending college. Done aerial and underwater cinematography for nature based major cable networks. I've worked with a lot of major camera brands whether they are cine, digital cine or TV based. Used various RED cameras off and on since 2008. Recently, we purchased an Epic-W for our daughter (a film school graduate) through an authorized dealer for RED Camera in our area. They offer 3 day REDucation classes in-house. I took that class and learned a bunch of things in spite of my previous experience as a DP/cinematographer. I think the class is around US$1500.00 ~ $1750.00 depending where you live. Bet you'd never regret taking time to attend that class.

Wish you the best.

 

[Giovanny Lago]

Thank you Adam!

The last step about creating the new calibration map was the step I was missing.

Prior to this, I didn't understand the concept of what a calibration map was or why one would need to be created, but that thread you linked to is a gold mine!

What target temperature do you set your camera to before black shading?

 

[Giovanny Lago]

Thanks for breaking it down and making it easy to understand Martin.

Now I know that the reason I got the fixed noise pattern was because I had no clue that the yellow T/E was warning me to black shade.

I also didn't know that the camera's target temperature related to the sensor! I assumed it was just a setting you could adjust to control when the fans kicked in, depending on how hot your environment was.

I'm gonna have to do some tests to see color differences between Auto vs Manual.

I will say that in my experience with the camera so far, there is a minor green tint to the footage, but it reminds me of the green tint in Canon's C-Log and it's easy to grade out.

I wonder if a manual black shade would fix this.

 

[Giovanny Lago]

Hey Neil!

I appreciate the advice. I'm convinced about taking that Red Education class now after discovering how little I knew about black shading (even though I spent months researching the camera and work flow before making the purchase.)

Wishing you the best as well!