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Epic VS Weapon: Same Settings, Better Picture?

A

Andy Maser

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Say I have my Epic Dragon and a Weapon Dragon each set to 5KHD 5:1 23.98fps. Both are blackshaded and at exposure/temp, ProRes turned off, LUTs disabled, fan noise isn't an issue, image is exposed properly. Will the Weapon make a picture that looks better?
 
DC Chavez said:
From what Jarred has said, about a 1/2 stop of dynamic range...

EDIT- And a greater crop factor on the Weapon.
Click to expand...

And also better data rates/compression ratios though that's still being tested.
 
Better A/D conversion... perhaps true 14bit or 16bit color compared to Epic's 12bit in a 16bit wrapper. 15bit according to Jim, but that's probably a typo.
Until we see the images we can't say what the differences are anyway. :P
 
While we're at it... with all things being equal, does Weapon produce a cleaner image at lets say ISO 2000 than Dragon? (Identical OLPFs in both cameras)
 
Andy Maser said:
Say I have my Epic Dragon and a Weapon Dragon each set to 5KHD 5:1 23.98fps. Both are blackshaded and at exposure/temp, ProRes turned off, LUTs disabled, fan noise isn't an issue, image is exposed properly. Will the Weapon make a picture that looks better?
Click to expand...

I would think that if both cameras are exposed properly they will look the same.
 
I guess he was thinking of the 8k weapon, but the FOV would (as I understand it) be exactly the same at the same resolution, even with that.
 
Phil Holland said:
And also better data rates/compression ratios though that's still being tested.
Click to expand...

From what I understand the limiting factor to higher frames on Dragon is the sensor itself - which is the same from Scarlet to Weapon.

Physics: You can't have High Dynamic Range, High ISO, High Bit Depth, Low Compression and High Frame Rates. You have to choose and prioritize from #1 to #5 . . . can't have it all. Phantom is optimized for High Frame Rate so you have a 10 Stop Dynamic Range.

That all being said please explain how Weapon can, even in theory, exceed Dragon-M in increased Frame Rates with Lower Compression. This is a major buying decision point for me.
 
VV: ~80% more surface area to catch light - > maybe ~60% on the FF Canon circle) + 0.5 stop better low light 'processing'.

In my books the means the 8k STH OLPF + VV = as good in low light as 6k Dragon + LLO.

I think this should finally give a clean 'ISO 2000' for a 4k finish.

Did RED make an inroads on a Middle of the road OLPF?

AJ
 
With the same color science applied to clips from the redone M, mx, epic mx, epic dragon, and I am sure weapon, the way the footage intercuts is quite excellent actually.

Im not worried about minor imperceptible differences. The point is I can cut 8 year old red footage with 1 day old red footage, but put it beside a 5D and the problems begin....
 
You know.

I get a bit tired of all the "clean" ISO 2000 talk. The dragon sensor is very clean in very little light, even on the sth OLPF.

To say you want it "clean" implies it's not, and also kinda goes against the actual physics of image making..
 
David Battistella said:
You know.

I get a bit tired of all the "clean" ISO 2000 talk. The dragon sensor is very clean in very little light, even on the sth OLPF.

To say you want it "clean" implies it's not, and also kinda goes against the actual physics of image making..
Click to expand...

I totally agree with what you are saying. Some of the threads about noise worried me so much that I ordered the Low Light OLPF as a precaution. It is still in its box and I have a feeling it will stay in there. I've been shooting Dragon (coming from MX) for 3 weeks and it's as clean as I need it to be.
 
Robino_J said:
I totally agree with what you are saying. Some of the threads about noise worried me so much that I ordered the Low Light OLPF as a precaution. It is still in its box and I have a feeling it will stay in there. I've been shooting Dragon (coming from MX) for 3 weeks and it's as clean as I need it to be.
Click to expand...


Thank you! Sth and DEB is the most I have ever needed. Rarely have found a need to process or shoot at 2000iso.
 
Having high sensitivity or low light performance isn't just about capturing the stars. It's also applies to lensing in normal to low light, if you need a deep stop in a practically lit room for example or shooting HFR with a deep stop for macro work. Using less studio lighting equals a smaller truck, less power, less crew which equates to more shots with higher quality and time spent with actors and story.

Low light performance and noise is incredibly relivent to today's methods of production. I've had mixed results with the noise on the dragon. Sometimes it bugs me sometimes I love it. The LLO OLPF, has made me much more comfortable to shoot higher ISO when required.
 
[AJ] "I think this should finally give a clean 'ISO 2000' for a 4k finish."
The 6k Dragon uses the Bayer pattern to extract 4k Detail as there are not sufficient B or G pixels in the 6K image.
At low light levels - 'leaning' on bayer pattern means that Chroma noise in any single pixel will create noise in all derived pixels (due to use of the Bayer pattern).

In VV 8k - each pixel has RGBG => A Cleaner 4k image in low light can be created (No Bayer required)

My actual thoughts on this are that it may well be time to switch from RGBG -> RGBX to give the VV the Dragon Monochrome low light level performance with a true 4k output.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130746-VV-8k-BAYER-Maths-Question

AJ

David Battistella said:
You know.

I get a bit tired of all the "clean" ISO 2000 talk. The dragon sensor is very clean in very little light, even on the sth OLPF.

To say you want it "clean" implies it's not, and also kinda goes against the actual physics of image making..
Click to expand...
 
Cool!

Thx for posting!

Antony Newman said:
[AJ] "I think this should finally give a clean 'ISO 2000' for a 4k finish."
The 6k Dragon uses the Bayer pattern to extract 4k Detail as there are not sufficient B or G pixels in the 6K image.
At low light levels - 'leaning' on bayer pattern means that Chroma noise in any single pixel will create noise in all derived pixels (due to use of the Bayer pattern).

In VV 8k - each pixel has RGBG => A Cleaner 4k image in low light can be created (No Bayer required)

My actual thoughts on this are that it may well be time to switch from RGBG -> RGBX to give the VV the Dragon Monochrome low light level performance with a true 4k output.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130746-VV-8k-BAYER-Maths-Question

AJ
Click to expand...
 
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