EPIC vs. RED ONE M-X Image Comparison?

[Julio Quintana]

Hey guys. Now that there are hundreds of Epics out there, when is someone going to do an extensive comparison between the Epic and Red M-X image quality? I know they share the same sensor, but several people have commented that the Epic images are inexplicably better. Does the extra resolution and lower compression make that much difference?

I would love to see some A-B comparisons shooting the same image with the same lenses and evaluate noise, dynamic range, and color rendition. Red M-X has become the gold standard for digital cinema, so it seems like the perfect benchmark by which to measure the Epic.

Ketch? Brook? Mark Pederson? Have you guys done any tests that you wouldn't mind sharing?

 

[Jannard]

The difference actually is explainable.

The RED ONE M-X rocks pretty hard. So what makes EPIC better even though it has the same sensor?

Electronics.

We learned quite a bit the past couple of years... which makes sense because we totally got lucky with the RED ONE and had no idea what we were doing. EPIC has a cleaner power supply and much more capable back end electronics that keep the signal cleaner all the way through the chain.

Your request is reasonable... but maybe you should just buy an EPIC-M and do your own tests for everyone?

The problem is that once you have one of these babies... it goes to work.

Jim

 

[Felix K.]

Another question: how long will you continue to make RED ONEs?

 

[JanneJansson]

My experience just by looking at EPIC vs R1-MX footage is that, at same iso EPIC has less noise/grain in shadows. The look matched each other perfectly if you grade with same setting in REDCINE-X.

 

[David Battistella]

I have heard, but not seen and am eager to test, this quote I heard from a very reputable REDUSER:

"the EPIC has everything the R1 MX has in the shadows, but actually has a lot more in the highlights, it doesn't clip quite like the R1 MX does/did. There is more information in the highlights."

If there is actually more room in the hihglights then the MX sensor is performing much more like a traditional film stock, with less hard clipping in the highlights. That would be very cool.

David

 

[David Kruta]

We did some informal side by side tests with R1 MX and Epic last night. Both look fantastic, but the R1 footage tended to skew a little green. In RedCine, using a tint of -4 seemed to match the R1 footage well to the Epic (once it was graded the same). We think there might be a little bit of compensation happening in the Epic body for the slight green skew.

The biggest and most significant differences are really new capabilities and form factor. Epic is tiny, has 5k 2:1 96fps, 2k 2.4:1 300fps, etc etc. I honestly would have thought that putting the capabilities of R1 in a package the size of Epic would have been an impressive feat, but Red has delivered above and beyond.

 

[Keith Putnam]

?..the Epic images are inexplicably better. Does the extra resolution and lower compression make that much difference?

Extra res doesn't hurt, and lower compression is very helpful, but to my mind the biggest factor in the quality difference between the MX image in the RED One vs. the Epic is that the former is a 12 bit system while the latter is 16 bit.

Bit depth, in digital imaging, is hugely important in terms of how smooth color and luminance gradients appear to be. Each pixel on the MX sensor in the Epic is allowed 65,536 possible values while in the RED One the same pixel has only 4,096 choices. It's a huge difference, and it results in a more analog-like response to light. For example, you get massively less banding in color and luminance gradients (think of capturing the sky just immediately after sunset and trying to get that huge range of color and brightness change from horizon to zenith) with a bit depth of 16 vs. 12.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Thanks, Keith. I never realized the implications of going from 12 to 16 bit.

Jim, with the Red M-X you always said that we could shoot at 800 iso with basically no noise penalty over 320 iso. Would you say that the number has gone up on the Epic? I would test this myself, but I haven't gotten my Stage 2 email yet

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

EPIC definitely needs a new sensor design a.k.a. RED DRAGON as soon as possible.

Sony F65 is coming up around Christmas and everybody knows that Sony was always Panavision (Genesis) sensor choice.

That's about a high end inside Hollywood situation...

 

[Johnny Friday]

Yep, i was taken back after shooting EPIC and knowing it was the same sensor as the RED ONE MX.....and others began asking me: "well if it's the same sensor, how do you explain that you get a cleaner, crisper image?" REPLY: "i don't know, but it is".

I'll have a link later today to some images taken using Nikon Lens....the video will be H264 on Vimeo, since my prores file was 12gb. But at redcodes of 12:1 thru 16:1 i'm blown away.

FRAME GRABS: http://www.flickr.com/photos/redcineunderwater/sets/72157627064303251/

 

[Martin Stevens]

EPIC definitely needs a new sensor design a.k.a. RED DRAGON as soon as possible.

Sony F65 is coming up around Christmas and everybody knows that Sony was always Panavision (Genesis) sensor choice.

That's about a high end inside Hollywood situation...

I don't think the use of the word "definitely" is appropriate. Epic with HDRx surpasses 35mm film.

 

[Craig Weeding]

EPIC definitely needs a new sensor design a.k.a. RED DRAGON as soon as possible.

Sony F65 is coming up around Christmas and everybody knows that Sony was always Panavision (Genesis) sensor choice.

That's about a high end inside Hollywood situation...

Lets talk Availability, Size, Weight Workflow and Cost.
The RED EPIC-M is shipping now. We received ours on Friday. Sony is famous for the abbreviation of their name: Sold Only Next Year.
The EPiC-M with a built in SSD drive it is a fraction of the size and weight of the Sony F65. Handholding two EPICs on a 3D rig, no problem, Handholding a two F65s with recorders on a 3D rig good luck. Check out the Spider Man Trailer to appreciate what you can do with a 3D Epic rig.
Workflow for the EPiC is great. RED-CINE-X, Adobe CS5.5, Avid, Storm, Scratch, Resolve and Pablo to mention a few. Sony F65 ?
The Cost of a EPIC-M is truly affordable, The Cost of an F65 with recorder, for us is out of reach.
RED is doing a fantastic job with the EPIC and as we know is working on the RED DRAGON. I do not think RED has anything to worry about.
Thank you and Congratulations to RED, keep up the good work.

 

[Julio Quintana]

Sanjin strikes again. I don't particularly care how Epic compares to the F65. I've never used either so the comparison means nothing to me. I have, however, owned a Red M-X for three years, so I want to know how the noise levels compare to Epic.

Red took an official position on the M-X sensor by rating it at 800 iso with no noise penalty. Has that number changed?

Jim?

 

[Florian Stadler]

In my tests I've found an appreciaciable difference in compression artefacts in the blue channel between the cameras. That difference does diminish as you go for higher compression ratios (8:1 and above) Overall the image is less noisy in the blacks. I couldn't see any difference in highlight retention but my test was coarse at .5 stop increments. I exposed both cameras at 800 ISO and compared developed files at redlog film/redcolor2 at 320ASA. Both systems came up way short in highlight retention when compared with a third camera system I tested.

 

[Nigel Stanford]

In our tests, when looking at graphs of the dynamic range, the epic has a nice roll off in the highlights and extra DR compared to the MX.

If the sensor is the same, I guess there's more grunt in the epic's processors to perform some extra wizardry.

 

[RivaiC]

Actually i was under impression that EPIC has a new colorimetry...but i might be wrong on this tho, maybe not for now