Epic vs Alexa Producer Arguement

[jake blackstone]

Module must be 12bit 4444 ProPes debayered Redfilm3. Nothing less. I wonder if Red will ever sit up and give the people what they want.

What's Redfilm3?
As far as Red sitting up and giving people what they want, even Apple eventually offered a two button mouse. I just hope it will not take Red a brush with death, like Apple did, to finally realize the necessity of proper Prores module. I can't remember the last time I'd worked with Red material on any commercial out of Europe. Red just being stubborn and short sighted. That's a shame...

 

[shashbugu]

Squeezing 13 stop DR raw footage into a simple one light corrected 7 stop (linear) video container as the first step in the finishing process seems like a massive waste of potential to me. Log files or not, video is still only video.
There is so much bad footage out there from people applying a video mentality to RED footage it seems a shame to encourage it.

Prores 12 bit log is far from 7 stops. I honestly don't know the technical details, but 90% of my red footage and footage from folks i know in los angeles is transferred to Prores 4444 or dpx, it sure looks damn friggin way more than 12 stops.

 

[David Rasberry]

Prores 12 bit log is far from 7 stops. I honestly don't know the technical details, but 90% of my red footage and footage from folks i know in los angeles is transferred to Prores 4444 or dpx, it sure looks damn friggin way more than 12 stops.

Prores is a video codec, by definition a 7 stop linear medium. Log formats are just a form compression to cram broader DR information into the 7 stop window that would otherwise be lost. Nothing wrong with that per se, it is more than you will see out of any current display technology, and it is eventually where you end up anyway. But doing it at the beginning of the post chain instead of at the end kind of defeats the whole purpose of shooting raw in the first place. Like finishing a film for release from one light dailies instead of the original negatives.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I think the dream is that eventually EVERYONE will be a RAW workflow. Arri will discard the SXS Pro Res and Sony will pas the F65 RAW thing down to its other cameras, etc..

BUT IN THE MEANTIME......

I know the pain we can feel and that Jim and Jarred feel that people would rather output something inferior to what is possible with r3ds. But I have never shot a commercial on Arri RAW. I don't know a episodic TV show shooting ARRI RAW to Codex.

If we had a module it would work great and ergonomically be a handsome addition. Perhaps PIX 240s or Samurai or KiPRO can make a module that RED would sanction and approve....

All this is stop gap but Could sell more jobs to producers and directors and post and shoot EPIC

(PS: Yes Jim and J, this hurts me to write....)

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think the dream is that eventually EVERYONE will be a RAW workflow. Arri will discard the SXS Pro Res and Sony will pas the F65 RAW thing down to its other cameras, etc..

BUT IN THE MEANTIME......

I know the pain we can feel and that Jim and Jarred feel that people would rather output something inferior to what is possible with r3ds. But I have never shot a commercial on Arri RAW. I don't know a episodic TV show shooting ARRI RAW to Codex.

If we had a module it would work great and ergonomically be a handsome addition. Perhaps PIX 240s or Samurai or KiPRO can make a module that RED would sanction and approve....

All this is stop gap but Could sell more jobs to producers and directors and post and shoot EPIC

(PS: Yes Jim and J, this hurts me to write....)

RED is on a 4k RAW mission.
Not allways practical, because in real life, that shoe does not fit all feet.
But it's REDs choice.

Sometimes I wish RED was a bit more pragmatic to userneeds.
Also because a lot of people mess up the RAW thingy, and blame the cam for the result - which actually in one sense is right...
Giving the option to record a foolproof log-RGB signal to a module, or preferably to the internal SSD, would ease more than force people into learning the strengths of the RAW workflow ehenever they need it.
My guess is that quite a few would start off with prores and end up RAW quite quickly.
But from their own preference, rather than dictation.
I also know that this is why it is hard to sell in Scarlets as opposed to C300s and other less atractive solutions, because in the choice between RAW and 50mbit mpeg2, the apparent simplicity of the C300 outplays the Scarlet.
Now... with a prores 422HQ/4444 signal to boot (without a KiPro or other unreliable external crap attached), that equation would change quite radically.

But Jim has done some wise business decissions so far, so I guess this is just lack of comprehnsion, even though it is seen from a place that litelarily buy cameras buy the boatloads when they see them fit...

But that is just me.

 

[jake blackstone]

The fact is you can't grade, edit or composite bayered image, period. If you edit with say, PP, the material is debayered in real time, but it is debayered. When you grade it with, say, Resolve, it get's debayered and gamma encoded in real time to BM codec and then it get's graded. Every grading system does that. You can't grade bayered image! When RAW image needs to be composited or manupulated, it has to be debayered first. Some day, hopefully, everything will be debayered the same way to something ACES compliant, like EXR and we will finally will be able to stop this discussion. Staying RAW all the way through post is unrealistic and intellectually dishonest. I like to grade from RAW as much as the next guy. But the moment there is a need for VFX or speed change, the RAW argument falls apart. With today's technology staying RAW all the way is an impossible technological dream. Let's stop this RAW fallacy and embrace the reality...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The fact is you can't grade, edit or composite bayered image, period. If you edit with say, PP, the material is debayered in real time, but it is debayered. When you grade it with, say, Resolve, it get's debayered and gamma encoded in real time to BM codec and then it get's graded. Every grading system does that. You can't grade bayered image! When RAW image needs to be composited or manupulated, it has to be debayered first. Some day, hopefully, everything will be debayered the same way to something ACES compliant, like EXR and we will finally will be able to stop this discussion. Staying RAW all the way through post is unrealistic and intellectually dishonest. With today's technology it is an impossible technological dream. Let's stop this RAW fallacy and embrace the reality...

LOL!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?78453-RAW-workflow-a-discussion&highlight=

 

[Mark Pugh]

Red seems to be interested in promoting it's cameras and workflows for
1 Features
2 Fashion stills/motion shoots.

I wouldn't be the first to point out that the vast majority of Epic / Scarlet shoots and sales have not much to do with either.
And that's why threads like this exist.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Red seems to be interested in promoting it's cameras and workflows for
1 Features
2 Fashion stills/motion shoots.

I wouldn't be the first to point out that the vast majority Epic / Scarlet shoots and sales have not much to do with either.
And that's why threads like this exist.

Most likely true, and I don't really see it that way.

It seems just to be a technical argument that it CAN be used that way.
We use them a lot for TV...

Works well, but gives another perspective for the selling points of the systems...
Which doesn't seem to interest RED that much.

I AM getting a bit frustrated by the "they didn't do it RAW" argument as a way of dissing peoples results.
A prores module with foolproof transcode settings, would probably solve that, if that is really an issue...

I can understand why they didn't do it earlier than 2010, that is before RedlogFilm/Redgamma2.

But now...

 

[Mark Pugh]

I'd bet that Red could probably have $20,000,000 turnover in months, and make a lot of people happy, by selling a module...
Seriously. $20,000,000 in orders, in no time.

 

[Mike P.]

I'd bet that Red could probably have $20,000,000 turnover in months, and make a lot of people happy, by selling a module...
Seriously. $20,000,000 in orders, in no time.

Really? Are there even 40,000 Epic/Scarlet cameras out there?


...C'mon, you can't blame me for wanting a ~$500 price tag.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Really? Are there even 40,000 Epic/Scarlet cameras out there?


...C'mon, you can't blame me for wanting a ~$500 price tag.

As I understood him, it could probably give RED a couple of more Epic/Scarlet sales...

But I see your point. I hope it isn't THAT many cameras out there.

Time to run tests again, possibly...
Hahahaha

 

[Mark Pugh]

I'd bet almost everyone with an Epic would happily slap down $5000.
I'm talking module sales.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'd bet almost everyone with an Epic would happily slap down $5000.

I wouldn't... But a few would

At BlackmagicPrice slash 50% for actually having a camera to start with, I gues quite a few would...

That's 1.500$ for you.
To CF or non-propritary SSD.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Plenty pay $4750 for a Red Rocket.

 

[Mark K.]

I'm going to throw this out there, but I say if the client wants you to shoot on Alexa, shoot on Alexa. Give them what they want, take the money and smile. At the end of the day it's just a camera, the workflow on Alexa is nice and simple (heck, shoot to DNxHD and just hand over the files at the end of the day - if your producer is using Avid, that'll be super simple and straightforward).

 

[Mark Pugh]

No. You're saying "sell your Epics"???
I'd like to shoot REDRAW AND Prores / DNXhd, and have the perfect camera.
And there's no sensible reason that I shouldn't be able to.

If Red's happy enough to sell a Rocket solution, they should also see the sense in a module solution.
Jim acknowledged this years ago, and announced H264 and possible Prores modules.
Then it was left to AJA, and it wasn't an adequate fix. Unreliable, chunky... And a separate hire.
With a Dragon sensor and Prores/ DNXhd module saving alongside the RAW SSD, there'd be no producer arguments unless...

I'm guessing that the camera's architecture precludes the use of a module for varispeed shots, except via playback on camera.
So it would not really cut it when you're shooting lots of high speed.

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Many users have been asking for a number of years for a pro res module solution. I would start using mine immediately.

 

[shashbugu]

Prores is a video codec, by definition a 7 stop linear medium. Log formats are just a form compression to cram broader DR information into the 7 stop window that would otherwise be lost. Nothing wrong with that per se, it is more than you will see out of any current display technology, and it is eventually where you end up anyway. But doing it at the beginning of the post chain instead of at the end kind of defeats the whole purpose of shooting raw in the first place. Like finishing a film for release from one light dailies instead of the original negatives.

You are saying that by definition pro-res 4444 12bit is a 7stop video codec or container. Glad to learn that, I never knew. Could you point me to a prores white paper. Compression

 

[David Rasberry]

You are saying that by definition pro-res 4444 12bit is a 7stop video codec or container. Glad to learn that, I never knew. Could you point me to a prores white paper. Compression

Any standards compliant video codec of whatever flavor you care to choose is limited to driving a defined signal range between the darkest visible black detail and peak white, shown on a waveform monitor as 0-100 IRE. You can calculate it like this. 20*log 100 = 40dB total DR between 0-100 IRE. Divide by 6dB/stop and you get about 6.7 stops max linear DR, period. You can divide that by however great a bit depth for a digital format you care too but that just gives finer gradations within the same maximum range. There are no consumer display technologies on the market today that will give you more than that and most actually deliver less. Don't believe me? Throw a SMPTE color bar image up on a properly calibrated TV monitor and read the range between the darkest visible pluge bar and the peak white square with a spot meter. Try spot meter reading screen values of a projected image in a theater and you will have a hard time finding one that can show 5 stops DR much less 7.
We mostly find this a pretty satisfactory and comfortable range for a viewing experience. The question becomes how and when we compress the much broader DR and gamut modern sensors are capable of delivering into the limits of our viewing formats. Nothing new about this, Ansel Adams had the same issues with getting the most out of his negatives when making prints. It is about preserving the most relevant ranges of details and values to meet the creative intent of the image.
The difference between recording Bayer raw sensor data and encoded video is the difference between capturing the full gamut and dynamic range the sensor is capable of or capturing a compressed representation of that range according to some engineer's or manufacturer's idea of what that representation should look like.
Raw capture for motion is still in its infancy as a technology. A serious still photographer might spend hours tweaking the raw data of one image to arrive at what he considers the best representation of his artistic intent. Doesn't seem like there is much time devoted to that part of the raw workflow yet for most motion work. I know there are colorists and effects people who are great artists in their own right and you do see some of this happening at the high end with the best work, but the idea hasn't penetrated very far into more mundane video centric production communities.