Epic UNDERWATER HOUSINGs, Comprenhensive Test & Review

[Pawel Achtel]

Great, thanks. Your site is just vague about monitoring options and camera controls. From what I gathered, the housing only had 2 control buttons, which seemed limited compared to a Gates setup with REDMote. Sounds like there's actually 3, which could be plenty. All I'd ever want to do is turn it on and off, start and stop recording and change resolution/frame rate/shutter speed. I'm far from a preset expert--can you set an assign button to hold the 3 variables at once? IE: Assign 1: 4k/120fps/240 shutter - Assign 2: 5k/24fps/48 shutter

The idea of the lens using the water as part of the optical system is pretty interesting. I do lots of underwater nat history shooting, primarily in rivers where the camera sometimes moves in and out of the water. I've definitely noticed the dramatic focal length difference with standard lenses taken underwater. (setting focal length above water, drop camera into water, object the same distance away is no longer in focus) Will the UW Nikkor lenses (ie 15mm) not focus at all above water or is there just a similar focal length difference that needs to be adjusted for?


Thanks,
Andy

Hey Andy,

Thanks for your feedback. I will try to make it clearer on our website. Yes, there are two spare buttons on the front, each of which can be assigned any function or setting.

Whilst you can get Nikonos 15mm to focus on land by either changing the rear focal distance or mounting a negative diopter, the distortions and aberrations are quite substantial....just as a terriestail lens placed behind an underwater dome. What we found through our research is that it is next to impossible to adapt terrestial wide angle rectilinear lens for underwater or vice versa....not if you want anything close to 4k or even HD. Using smaller 2/3" HD sensors things were somewhat different and managable, but with the introduction of large sensors the problems grew expotentially (due to image plane curvature) and triggered my quest to find out a solution.

However, fisheye lenses work as well above as they do underwater and large part of the community has been using Tokina 10-17mm fisheye with good results. I personally do not like fisheye distortions except for a few selected shots. Just my artistic preference

 

[Andy Maser]

Pawel,
Thanks for the info--super interesting. So just to be 100% clear--if you pull the Nikonos 15mm out of the water, it physically won't focus? Or are the focal distance numbers just totally out of whack? I think the way that I use UW housings might be slightly different than the way you do--sometimes I have to follow action as it transitions from above water to below water and vice versa. Refocusing between the air/water media is fine if it's possible.

For all my Nat Geo work I've been shooting this stuff with a 5D in an Aquatica housing and a Canon 16-35mm lens. And it works. But I have an Epic and Scarlet that I'd rather start using for that purpose instead. Totally agree--not a fan of the distortion of the Tokina 11-16 or 10-17. Replaced my 11-16 with a Zeiss 15mm and the difference has been staggering.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I like the Nikonos lenses some are quite nice. For our work we still much prefer to have the ability to change focal length underwater for Wildlife work. As we cant change Nikonos lenses underwater another solution is usually needed which I think for most people is a dome port. I guess its good that there is a variety of housings.

Id aslo highlight we use Gates Deep Epic which we are very pleased. Gates Support is second to no manufacturer underwater or topside for any equipment in our inventory.

 

[Peter Strietmann]

Hi Andy,


I believe Nikonos do make a lenses that works above water I can't remember what focal length it is though off hand. I have recently been involved in a feature shooting in surf with my Deep Epic and it was tough due to its size but it is beautifully balanced underwater

Yes they do it is the 35mm. I have a 3' print made with the 35mm above my desk.

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Will,

I think a comparison of all EPIC housing offerings is a great idea. You have the opportunity to highlight the differences amongst the various manufacturer’s offerings.

Before I commit, however, I would like to see your plan, and the criteria to be evaluated. I suspect the forum members will have some valuable input as well.

John

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel,
Thanks for the info--super interesting. So just to be 100% clear--if you pull the Nikonos 15mm out of the water, it physically won't focus? Or are the focal distance numbers just totally out of whack? I think the way that I use UW housings might be slightly different than the way you do--sometimes I have to follow action as it transitions from above water to below water and vice versa. Refocusing between the air/water media is fine if it's possible.

Hi Andy,

The Nikonos 15mm simply won't focus in air. It is waaay out of focus on land. There is an optical element that you can put in front of the lens that would bring the focus into the range usable on land, but the edges will remain fuzzy in air just like the land lenses turn fuzzy on the edges behind dome underwater. The differences of optical density between air and water and variability of other properties make it impossible to have a rectilinear lens (housed or submersible) perform well in both environments. At least not with a large sensor and not if you want to retain anything close to 4k quality. You would need to build a 30" dome and still the results would be marginal.

However, unlike housed systems, the Nikonos lens can be swapped in the field in 5 seconds without openning the housing - something not practical or possible to do with housed lens systems. There are also wet wide angle adapters for Nikonos UW 35mm that work quite well.

The way I solved this problem was with 3Deep: having two different lenses on each of the cameras. There is also nothing wrong with bolting together two DeepX housings with two different optics...and still have the entire dual camera rig lighter than most other single camera setups. Size and weight matters.

What Peter Cragh and Bob Cranston pointed out to me whaile testing the DeepX was the ability to invert the DeepX upside down and shoot extremely low angle - something not possible with any other rig. Bob loved this feature and played with the housing like a kid in a sand box. I thought that this could be relevant when filming in shallow rivers as you can practically shoot in just 4" (10cm) of water.

Very interesting shots! Not often do we see underwater images from rivers.

 

[Will Keir]

John,

Good to have your support, I'll let you know more details on the test and welcome feedback to make the test as comprehensive as possible.

Will,

I think a comparison of all EPIC housing offerings is a great idea. You have the opportunity to highlight the differences amongst the various manufacturer’s offerings.

Before I commit, however, I would like to see your plan, and the criteria to be evaluated. I suspect the forum members will have some valuable input as well.

John

 

[Will Keir]

updated

 

[Will Keir]

In conversation with builders and friends: A late March setup for these tests would be an excellent time but would not include all of the housings a test of this nature warrants. There are, currently, no resources of this nature on the planet, at best there are maybe 50-100 experienced guys that shoot various Epic housings UW. How many of those have shot on more than a few of the current options?

I have the choice to roll with a few, 3-5 housings, or wait and possibly have them all. I'd like to include everybody and am considering dates and locations that will accommodate this.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Either could work.

I think the most difficult part would be to identify and design the tests and determine how to conduct them. I liked the suggestions of types of the tests from Rudi: weight, size, drag, optical performance with fish-eye, wide angle and macro/closup - all sound useful and practical criteria.

But, that's the easy part. I guess weight, size and drag can be more easily established. We may not need all the housings in one place to establish this - just compare the specifications.

The optical performance is harder to measure as it requires highly repeatable setup and workflow and experience.

I'm happy to assist with any aspect of the test and, of course, very eager to compare our housings to others.

 

[Will Keir]

Rudi would be an invaluable addition to these tests, more or less, this is his world. He's a busy guy and I've talked to him a bit about combining forces. Hopefully we'll find the opportunity.

I liked the suggestions of types of the tests from Rudi: weight, size, drag, optical performance with fish-eye, wide angle and macro/closup - all sound useful and practical criteria.

 

[Ron Lagerlof]

Replaced my 11-16 with a Zeiss 15mm and the difference has been staggering.

Andy, Is that the new Zeiss 15mm Distagon T2.8? I have that lens and have been eager to try it in the Gates Deep Epic housing. I'm curious about the shade though, and if it will have to be milled off. I'm assuming you have been using it on the 5D? What length of extension ring and dome port size are you running?
Ron

 

[Will Keir]

Rudi,

Busy summer? Never saw any work on your housing tests. Looking forward to getting some of these reviews out there, still an area we need to cover as a community.

Best.

Will,

I'm in the process of testing several Epic housings for UnderwaterCinema.com, which I will do in my backyard here in the Florida Keys. Gotta say though, I think you should have posted this on the Underwater Bubble Blowers thread if you really want all the input you can get. At any rate, I won't have the time to test all housings at once but my reviews will start appearing one by one soon. Maybe that will be of of some help or not if you're in a hurry. Good luck.

 

[john zerihoun]

Hi Pawel,

A straight and simple question to you:

- would any of the Nikonos lenses work both in water and on land? If not, which one would render the best result in both environment?

Cheers,

John

 

[Phil Barthropp]

Hi, for some reason Pawel has fallen from grace on this forum, I would email questions directly to him.

His website is:
http://achtel.com

He's a great guy who'll be very happy to help.

Phil

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Hey Will... I guess this is one of those times that when you taught that you already had experienced the very best... You get surprised... Again...

And while Gates remains one of the absolute TOP UWH... I believe I actually have found one that seats even a top Gate's UWH... And that is truly saying a lot and any one that has used Gates UWH's knows that.

Footage, full review and BTS imagery all in 4k coming soon, not too soon, but soon...


And yes, I am talking about the Amphibico Rouge from Aquatica... What an incredible housing design it is...

 

[john zerihoun]

Hi, for some reason Pawel has fallen from grace on this forum, I would email questions directly to him.

His website is:
http://achtel.com

He's a great guy who'll be very happy to help.



Phil

Hi Phil,

So I noticed.

I will contact him directly.

Its a jungle out there, currently looking for a couple of underwater houses that can pull of great shots both above as well as under surface.

Do you know if that topic as been covered? If so, I appreciate any links.

Thanks,

John

 

[Johnny Friday]

Hey Will... I guess this is one of those times that when you taught that you already had experienced the very best... You get surprised... Again...

And while Gates remains one of the absolute TOP UWH... I believe I actually have found one that seats even a top Gate's UWH... And that is truly saying a lot and any one that has used Gates UWH's knows that.

Footage, full review and BTS imagery all in 4k coming soon, not too soon, but soon...

And yes, I am talking about the Amphibico Rouge from Aquatica... What an incredible housing design it is...

Ketch i respectfully must disagree with you about your statement about Rouge housing being better than a Gates. Most u/w shooters know what they need in order to do a job....First, Rogue does not have (or i have not seen) an external monitor--VERY important. Second, they have a completely different philosophy of what they believe is important to an underwater shooter---electronics vs. manual control. Most shooters that have earned their keep and worked for in the field know that having electronics can and eventually will be a concern in the field....i know that my manual housing will never fail me, but having owned two electronic housings in the past, each has failed me and caused me to stop the job because i could not repair nor diagnose the problem in the field.

You on the other hand may not find that to be a problem if shooting say in a pool in New York or Paris or Atlanta, where you can pick up a phone and get a rental housing sent to you when such a failure occurs....I on the other hand cannot do that when I'm on a boat in the middle of a production on the Sea of Cortez or up the Okavango Delta.... I can also state that when you are shooting on a production and you are relied on to get the job done, you cannot have failure and you better be prepared. This is vastly different than going out and shooting stock footage and for your own project where the stakes are not so high as on a job you are hired for as a professional to not only get the job done, but come prepared and to deliver the product as you were contracted to do...telling the director the problem is due to an electronic part or something out of your hands is not an acceptable answer, nor will it get you hired again.

Now, this will likely be a subject of much heated debate, but all it takes is to have that one failure when you are far from home and from access to next day fed-ex and on a boat at sea to blow your reality of what you believe is key to a housing design of philosophy.

...and at the end of the day, what i want from my housing is:
#1: reliability over anything
#2: PROMT and immediate service and attention from the manufacturer
#3: Versatility: a housing that allows me to use Cine lenses, DSLR lenses, mounting options underwater, flat or dome port, glass or plexi, SDI surface feed, and so on.....Basically a sytem that allows for growth--this of course means the housing will be a bit larger than i would like, but a sacrifice for when a job calls for external monitoring or surface control.

Indeed this is a subject that i think only seasoned veterans can give a valid opinion on and some in fact may completely disagree with me. But again, all that has to happen is an electronic failure in the field to get one thinking differently.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Johnny,

our shooting needs vary form shooter to shooter, and nothing could be more true when it comes to UWH, and for this I had chosen Gates first, but as things worked out differently I found out about the Amphibico Rouge, and for our needs it ended up actually offering exactly what I wanted, more so then the Gates could, exactly for the opposite of what you want, I prefer the electronic controls of the Red Epic, and they allow for much faster set up changes and actual control of the camera.

Their new housing allows also for various option and not just electronic, as for the external monitor, they now also allow for that, but I prefer the done on top of the actual housing and the second one on the drear of it, and don't think I will make much use of the extern one, even so things can change.

I will dive in open water as well as in deep pools, but I do not plan, do to my health issues, to risk it and go as deep as most of your Pros do, but I will definitely will not be limited to Pool shooting.

Again, no question that Gates has been and continues to remain my Top consideration for UWH, but the pleasing surprise of riding out about the new Aquatica Amphibico Rouge made me extremely happy, and the fact that they are also about to officially become my Sponsor even better... Yet, my compliments to them do not come because of that, and any one here that knows me, knows well that I always speak my mind out no matter what and only back the absolute best gear... Even so of course each of us have opinion on what is best, yet I base my opinion on consideration of multiple things not just one or two..., Lastly once I'll have had countless dives with it and gathered imagery to share all can make their own opinion about my results, review of the gear in action, and results of what I for it...

The respect I have for Gates will surely not be diminished because I will be suing a Aquatica Amphibico Rouge UWH instead of a Gates, and in fat I am in communication with John to possibly test their new UW Lights which surely sound to be amazing as their product, but I just believe that I made a good decision, time will tell.


PS Johnny: Love your stunning work!! And love your location too, I leaved in Los Cabos for few years and drove to La Paz almost every month... Insanely beautiful waters...

 

[Ron Lagerlof]

john zerihoun The Nikonos lenses were built to be "water contact" and aside from the 35mm do not work in air. To answer your question, yes, you can use pretty much any housed system with a "land" lens behind a dome or flat port to get above and below shots. See the attached frame grab - Epic 5K w/ Zeiss 15mm Distagon, shot with Gates Deep Epic.

KETCH ROSSi Anytime you want to talk lights, lenses, diving - let me know - Barcelona sounds great...