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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic Stages Breakdown

Is it established how and when we can indicate which stage we'd like to be a part of? I know there was something about 30 days to decide - but is that 30 days from the October 30th announcement or some other date/announcement? Do we contact our Bomb Squad rep? Will there be a Crucial Ordinance e-mail letting us know who and when to e-mail?

RED company and crew is completely awesome and so is this Epic upgrade - I just really don't want to miss the boat by accident...
 
My assumption is that you will receive an email from RED (make sure your email info is up to date) saying your position in the que has come up. You will then have 30 days to decide if you want to go for it or not.
 
very nice compilation Steve.
how many tattoos do you guys think will go out? my guess is 100 or so.
 
Has there been ANY talk about the timing of the upgrading the One to the X chip? That is going to be a pretty big deal to me.

I am wondering if it does make any sense for me to make the switch to Epic-X or just upgrade our One and then by a Scarlet. I don't need oodles of features due to the type of things we shoot.

Stephen
 
Jean Déraps said:
Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be sort of a stage 3.5 where those buying the RED One after October 29 can get some discount:
Post by Jim
Click to expand...

I don't see any hint whatsoever about a Stage 3.5 ... or a discount.




EpicStagesUpdated2.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Steve ... I also do not follow how Stage 4 S35 Epic cameras with have a less than "Cream of the Crop" sensor in them.
 
I'm not sure I agree with the "really missing out" description on Stage Three in regards to stage two, but I'm totally willing to be enlightened. At the moment, I'm taking all the information with a grain of salt since it changes so often.

However. What I'm seeing here is a 9,000 dollar difference. The equipment difference is the LCD size. I hope they offer an upgrade option for that, but we don't know that - but that price difference is the only adjustment I see for sure $700.

So for $8300, you can keep your RED One. if you want to upgrade it to keep it up to date and like your epic, it would be another 4500, so $12800. So, it's like paying $12800 for a new camera body.

The Scarlet S35 is $7000 and is better than a RED One. So, that's where I don't see the advantage. You are basiclaly paying for a camera even if you didn't upgrade to the new sensor, not getting a bonus camera.

So, what am I missing.

For full disclosure: As much as I have been a long time RED supporter and have defended many policies and decisions, this stage release is the first time I've felt a little bit like a promise was cleverly broken. While delivery dates were never guaranteed, nor prices... We were all told that our serial numbers would determine the order in which we would receive our Epics and Scarlets. The staging scenario seems like a bit of a cheat around that because it's an arbitrary choice, not something which HAD to be that way.

I once bought a 3D program for $7000 and was promised life time upgrades. A year or two later, they changed the name of the product and said "You can buy it new, but the product you bought is no longer existing and the new product is new - it has a new name." So, perhaps I'm sensitive to these things.
 
Fair points Mark. I guess where I see the benefit to Stage 2 is that it will be the first production stage, so hopefully very stable at that point, you get to keep R1 (there could be a variety of reasons for keeping it ranging from nostalgic to it still rents out even without M-X), and you get priority if you do want to upgrade your R1. Considering that a basic RED ONE package costs about $25,000 and the Epic Stage 2 package will cost about $20,000, you have two incredible cameras for $45,000. I know accessories wil run those numbers much higher, but theoretically you've got a 5K and a 4K camera for less than $50,000. Isn't that pretty incredible? It's possible I'm missing something because it's been a long, long week so I could have my facts, math wrong.
 
Mark Allen said:
...
So for $8300, you can keep your RED One. if you want to upgrade it to keep it up to date and like your epic, it would be another 4500, so $12800. So, it's like paying $12800 for a new camera body.

The Scarlet S35 is $7000 and is better than a RED One. So, that's where I don't see the advantage. You are basiclaly paying for a camera even if you didn't upgrade to the new sensor, not getting a bonus camera.

So, what am I missing.

For full disclosure: As much as I have been a long time RED supporter and have defended many policies and decisions, this stage release is the first time I've felt a little bit like a promise was cleverly broken. While delivery dates were never guaranteed, nor prices... We were all told that our serial numbers would determine the order in which we would receive our Epics and Scarlets. The staging scenario seems like a bit of a cheat around that because it's an arbitrary choice, not something which HAD to be that way.
Click to expand...

Steve:

I think what Mark is saying is that under the original announced plan (at least as most of us understood it) we were getting an Epic-X for 10,500 and in order of serial number. Then if we wanted a second camera body we could get the Scarlet S35 for $7000 and maybe $2000 in needed modules/batteries - so a total of $19,500 would get you 2 cameras - both NEW with the newest sensor and ASIC technology, better form factor and interchangeable modules. The first camera far exceeds the RED performance in every way. For 7K the scarlet has the improved sensor ($4500 if upgrade on RED1) and better performance than R1 in many other aspects as well. So for the same $19K you would get two new, better cameras.

So when you actually do the side by side comparison the only benefit to the "$19.5K keep the R1" scenario is you keep your place in line - and as Mark says that sort of leaves a weird taste in your mouth.
 
I'm liking Michael's logic here a lot.

Stephen
 
Of course I love the images I currently generate out of my R1 now and am pumped about the new specs but I'm still in the woods a bit about the when and how of getting to something like the 645. Is there an upgrade path from this current R1 to M-X upgrade path? Are we supposed to ignore the email when it comes to tell us we have our 30 days? Can we choose to Stage 2 and then have a subsequent trade in toward the 645 or what?
 
@Michael :: Bingo - I did the same logic path when I heard the Nov30 announcement. On Oct30 I was convinced that a stage 2 was the only logical choice, the more I look at it, the S35 with the "Smart" Nikon mount has more to offer that my trusty R1..

My only worry is the flexibility of the R1's firmware vs the "locked in" method of the next generation.. I think I am gonna hold my decision until a shipping scarlet /epic is closer. Everything changes, so who knows.
 
I'm not sure I understand the "bad taste" in the mouth. I think a number of people read interpretations of announcements that are often somewhat wishful thinking -- and aren't directly from Red. And Jim's mantra: "subject to change" is easily ignored. But I think whenever there are changes, Jim has succeeded, not in "breaking promises", but in being even more generous.

For instance, as I understand it, the Epic-X roll out is in order of "delivery date" -- NOT serial number. As might be recalled, Jim was very generous in allowing people who couldn't get up the cash to keep their place in line via their minimal deposit -- and the order of delivery I think is a pretty fair system.

And perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't believe there was ever an announcement from Red that Red owners would get any priority on Scarlet -- in fact I think it was specifically stated they would not -- only a 12 per cent discount if they chose to exercise their Red 1 ownership priviledges that way. (I doubt there will be many takers on this.)

As far as the Tattoo program -- we will all benefit. And Red will benefit. Remember, there are some big boys competing, Arri for one, and Jim is smart to try and make as bullet proof a professional camera as possible -- and by guarding that reputation, he guards our reputations as well. So why should we complain?

As for the Stage 2, well, that was Red's specific attempt to accommodate people who wanted to keep their Reds -- and hey, maybe a nod to sentimental about Red isn't a bad thing. I will certainly not resent anyone getting a touch ahead on this count. And I certainly don't see that as warranting a "bad taste" or "cleverly broken promise" --

I mean, the whole program is the epitome of generosity -- and gratitude seems the appropriate response.
 
Suggesting that a policy rubbed you the wrong way doesn't detract from the admiration of a product, nor does it instantly negate the (now) years of evangelism someone has done for a product to help legitimize it even-though there was a great lack of understanding about the camera even after it came out (and a great deal of ridicule prior). I think it's a totally separate and fair issue to say: "I thought the deal was that deliveries would happen in serial number order (or, if you like, delivery order - it's almost the same) and the new plan seems to circumvent that."

Now, for the Stage One release, well, that seems perfectly fair. They are going to make some number of cameras to test and charge whomever they choose and is willing to use them. Sounds like a Beta program which is legitimately outside any implied promises I would say.
 
Michael Hastings said:
So when you actually do the side by side comparison the only benefit to the "$19.5K keep the R1" scenario is you keep your place in line - and as Mark says that sort of leaves a weird taste in your mouth.
Click to expand...

I think "some" of you guys are missing some HUGE context... the "deal" may have changed (and that was fairly addressed by JJ's signature)

but what you all seem to be forgetting is that the features have increased EXPONENTIALLY to what was announced back then. With very little price difference, proportionately. How does this leave a "bad taste'?

RED has kept their word with STAGE 3... period. And read the OCT 30 announcement, its about 60 to 75 days estimated betweens Stage 2 and stage 3. Hardly call that losing one's place in line, given the history of RED ONE deliveries and how long people waited.

STAGE 2 is "optional" and makes life easier for RED logistically and is an INCREDIBLE VALUE...as Steve Sherrick wisely pointed out. Stage 2 also really benefits all of us as the sooner this program is put to bed, the faster they can deliver all the new products. And at excellemnt price points. This "program" I can imagine, is costing them a small fortune.

FACT: They already announced they are losing $ on the TATTOO program.

If we are going to talk "FAIR" then perhaps they should create a STAGE 5 program where you get the OLD EPIC and SCARLET specs for the OLD deal...

Any takers?
 
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