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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic render...

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Jannard said:
All foreign applications have now been filed. Hope this helps relieve some stress.

Jim

9_epic10x.jpg
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You know, Jim... if that toggle switch I see on Epic is either user replaceable on the field, or made to be overridable by another device either on or off camera, I'd feel better about it.

Sometimes I wonder about the RED One's myself. Always cross my fingers it won't fail at a critical moment.

Could all the RED One and Epic controls be made to operate from an off-camera software-driven platform in case the onboard unit fails? Like a proprietary dedicated off-board controller unit, or else a laptop, PDA, smartphone, et al?

I know... I know... I'm a worry-wart... but- better safe than sorry!

:whistling:
 
Jarred Land said:
From following Brook's attitude over the last week.. I am convinced EPIC is not a camera that he will be happy with, and that's ok.
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Can I sense a change in policy and a possibility to jump into his place in the queue? :clown2:
 
This is definitely a step in the right direction...

Here are my comments, take em or leave em.

1: Take the whole bottom/shoulder pad/block thing and turn it 180º around. Right now it's too far backwards to ever balance the camera. Use an accessory block to hold rods.

2.The BNC's are perfect, now add the power and drive connecters below them and farther forward so the camera can be laid completely on it's ass.
If you need to loose an XLR, two is fine.

3. Move the entire rear control/display to the smart side of the camera just behind the lens mount (I know, you've heard this one before).

4. Add a removable V-mount battery plate to the now bare back of the camera. Preferably wired internally but a super short plug would work fine too.

Ariana said:
How old is Brook? 19?

There is a big difference between those of us that have been around the industry for 10s of years and those that are green. It's a small world out there and being a punk smart ass acting like hot shit will only get you so far before it backfires in your face.

It's strange because normally it's the kids that embrace new ideas and not us cranky old farts.
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The thing is Brook may be young but he's the one that has to defend the camera from all the truly Old Phart ACs and DPs who look at the Red one and wonder why the hell it doesn't work like an Arri. It may seem silly but to the guys who do this five days a week these little touches make all the difference. Brook (and Matt and myself and others) are as critical as we are because we would genuinely like to see the Epic become the de-facto digital 35mm replacement camera in Los Angeles. The Red One is well on it's way to that already but the ergos are one of the biggest things holding it back from complete acceptance.

Now LA/Hollywood production may not be the only market for Red (Unlike the f23/35) but it is for us, and this is where the rubber meets the road. Pretty soon Red isn't going to be the new kid on the block, there will be competition. And even if the others can't compete on image quality they will still find a market if the day to day shooting experience is superior. Even if they are more expensive! Big DPs and ACs don't care how much a camera costs, that's production's problem. They care how fast it can change from tripod to handheld and how intuitive the controls are and how balanced it is on the shoulder.

The bottom line is if Red can make Epic not just the most bad ass imaging device out there but the most comfortable/fastest to use, they will own this town! Will they own it anyway? Probably. But someone is bound to challenge Red eventually (Nikon's new D90 DSLR will shoot video!) Moore's law guarantees us image quality will plateau, so it will be the user experience that will eventually set Epic and Monstro apart and establish the loyalty of the next generation of DCinema filmmakers.

With love,
E.
 
Casey Green said:
No worries. I understand the gist of the situation. I have had a lot of experience doing beta testing and feature development over the years.

And something I learned along the way was that critiquing is a very delicate art, which allows little room for pushing people's buttons. I realize many of us have put a lot of time into research and feedback over the past several months, but we must keep proper perspective and continue to go about this process with respect and good nature.

This is a rare opportunity we all have here, and I would hate to see it disappear.

Anyway, how about we get back to the topic at hand?
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We receive alot of feedback everyday.. we invite some of the best AC's and DP's in the world to come through our door and tell us how they think the camera should look like. We appreciate that kind of feedback. Many of you post random suggestions that we have always listened to... and we are very grateful for that.

I tell you though... trying to bully, mock, or force feedback onto us will not work, it will just turn us off.

Everyone thinks they know how to build the perfect camera, but that person doesn't realize that the guy next to him has a totally different idea of what the perfect camera looks like.....
 
Evin Grant said:
This is definitely a step in the right direction...

Here are my comments, take em or leave em.

1: Take the whole bottom/shoulder pad/block thing and turn it 180º around. Right now it's too far backwards to ever balance the camera. Use an accessory block to hold rods.

2.The BNC's are perfect, now add the power and drive connecters below them and farther forward so the camera can be laid completely on it's ass.
If you need to loose an XLR, two is fine.

3. Move the entire rear control/display to the smart side of the camera just behind the lens mount (I know, you've heard this one before).

4. Add a removable V-mount battery plate to the now bare back of the camera. Preferably wired internally but a super short plug would work fine too.
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I'd cosign all these suggestions as well. Building upwards with batteries and drives screws the pooch for handheld, and building backwards works but covers up the back panel.

Another possible suggestion is flopping the whole thing on it's side, so it's wider to the non operator side of the mount..this would lower the CG.

I'm learning how to make the current situation work for me, but it can be a bit better.
 
I 115% agree with everything Evin said.

This new render of Epic is looking better, but... The power and drive connectors on the rear of the RED One are typically in the way when I'm fumbling for controls. Especially if I try to mount something back there -- and I usually do. I'm sad to see them still on the backside of the camera like this with the control surface right above them.

A removeable control panel would be killer, especially if it could be docked on the smart side as well. The camera is said to have WiFi control... A WiFi control surface that duplicates the rear panel will be the first thing I want for an EPIC rig... Even if I'm just going to mount it on the smart side of the camera.

I am also interested to see what sort of bottom rod mount solution in the form of a baseplate / toe plate, etc (compatible with Arri dovetail, of course).. will be available and how that will lay out with the shoulder cut-out.

Is that shoulder cut-out much of a change in the exterior design? Or is it just a curved piece that screws onto the bottom of the EPIC (Borg) cube?

I'll shut up now, before I share in Brook's misery...

:whistling:
535_1218591305.jpg
:whistling:​
 
Evin Grant said:
The thing is Brook may be young but he's the one that has to defend the camera from all the truly Old Phart ACs and DPs .
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- Evin I understand Brook is one of your employees do do not be offended by this -

- But I believe it is very clear that defending the camera is the last thing that Brook is doing here -

- Posting a photo of him and his buddies on set laughing about Jim's vision!!!? -

- WTF???????? -
 
Jarred Land said:
From following Brook's attitude over the last week.. I am convinced EPIC is not a camera that he will be happy with, and that's ok.
Click to expand...

I said it on July 4th and I will say it again: "...time to put Brook on the payroll (if he isn't already). He speaks for a lot of us here!"

No one else has taken the time to present such a well-researched, very clearly illustrated wish-list as the one Brook did in the "Let's talk ergonomics" thread.

This initial rendering of the Epic left me with the impression that certain design features are carved in stone no matter how many Redusers ask for something else. For example, it is inconvenient to have all the important camera controls on the back. There is a reason why no other cameras are built with them there. I know I will get spanked for this, but I had really envisioned the Epic as a chance for Red to start with a clean slate and design a camera based on what we are all asking for.
 
There's probably a good reason why the main controls are still on the back side of this render; my guess is that RED needs to be less open about their choices due to the problems they are having with reverse-engineering. My bet is they have a bunch of reasons for the design of Epic, but as said, it's just unsafe for them to disclose the finer details of the design at this stage. Just my guess.
 
Lara Stara said:
- Evin I understand Brook is one of your employees do do not be offended by this -

- But I believe it is very clear that defending the camera is the last thing that Brook is doing here -
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Brook is not my employee, the Ninjas are all independent members of the co-op.

However, defending the Red is exactly what he and many of us do day in and day out. Weather to producers or DPs or ACs or forum members.
That's the point, we'd much prefer to just shoot and be happy. And Epic is our opportunity to have that.

Lara Stara said:
-
Posting a photo of him and his buddies on set laughing about Jim's vision!!!?
- WTF???????? -
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OK, this is miscommunication, and a generally bad decision on Brook's part.
The image is intended to illustrate the group's despair and frustration at the lack of meaningful change in the design. It is not mean to mock, or make fun of anyones efforts. However I suspect this was posted in a lighthearted vain and as such was received in completely the wrong way.
 
1st off... while we encourage suggestions and have used many to improve our program, I'm not into disrespectful posts, especially by a Moderator. I'm quite disturbed by the presentation.

Now, to undo some misconceptions.

1st. You can't make a RED fit or act like a 235. The small optical finder sitting right up against the body is completely different than a RED EVF and how it positions next to a RED ONE or Epic. Balance relative to eye position is more important than a measurement of where the PL mount is relative to your shoulder. And the time to judge this is in full shooting configuration.

2nd. The latest Epic render does show the beginning part of a shoulder mount. The step up is measurably different than a RED ONE. The shoulder to height of the PL mount is about the same as a 435. It is about 1" different than a 235 depending on the back of the shoulder mount configuration... assuming that it really does matter (not to me).

3rd. While you can debate 'til the cows come home where the controls should be, the controls on Epic can be removed from the back and mounted anywhere you want... tethered or wireless. That seems to me to be a much better solution than "just" on the front left side of the camera.

4th. As for the side outputs. It is much better, IMHO, to have a cleaner right side (when you have no outputs) than a big block of aluminum that makes the camera permanently wider no matter what. The space it takes to go 90 degrees with cables is no more than the block itself. Plus, you still have the option of a breakout box to tidy things up when you want it that way.

Sometimes one gets puffed up because they can see all the way down the block. The trick is seeing around the corner.

Jim
 
Thanks for the clarification... and the great added features. My favorite, as you probably have guessed:

Jannard said:
...3rd. While you can debate 'til the cows come home where the controls should be, the controls on Epic can be removed from the back and mounted anywhere you want... tethered or wireless. That seems to me to be a much better solution than "just" on the front left side of the camera.

Jim
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Hahah! Music to my ears! I knew it! My precious! ;)

Thanks again for the dialog with us all.
 
With love and respect, Red obviously is listening. Regarding the physical design of the camera this is just a baby step forward from the Red One, not an EPIC leap forward. You guys can do better. If you'd like to have the designers visit the set of my current production I can arrange it and you can see in first person what is working and what is not.

I Generally agree with what Brook and Evin and a few others said...

With the exception of the BNC's all the connectors are poorly thought out, this is annoying EVERY time I shoot with my Red One and the situation is not materially improved on this mock up. I want to be able to set the camera on it's ass without stressing any cables. We shoot that way. This morning I had the camera on it's ass and the cables were digging into a Pasadena lawn and it sucked, the same design flaw is evident in this render and it still sucks.

An even lower center of gravity ( and lower lens mount ) would be very desirable. The EVF tends to appear in the shot when I shoot with wide angles... If the mount was lower there would be more distance from the optical axis and the evf, and would also afford the left eye a better view over the matte box for making more informed framing decisions. Also lower underslung shots would be possible.

This camera is small, and in general cameras are getting smaller. Lenses are getting bigger and heavier having the optical axis lower allows the possibility of getting the lens and the total CG lower, I think we universally agree that this is a good thing! It's easy to add a riser block to build the camera into studio mode... I'm glad the shoulder cutout made it in, but cut a little deeper my friends !!!

Since so many are going to use an EVF and an onboard battery maybe the design should anticipate that a little ? My battery migrated to low and far back on the dumb side ( helped balance the EVF ) I've seen a few other users come up with custom brackets to mount the battery or drive there. should this not be anticipated in the design.

Movable control Panel? Hell Yes! I don't understand how it works from this render... but don't have it live at the back... Does the back one detach or is there an aux. one available as an option.

Thanks for sharing and listening - We are actually all on the same side, we all want a great camera.

I think you can do better.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
Jannard said:
3rd. While you can debate 'til the cows come home where the controls should be, the controls on Epic can be removed from the back and mounted anywhere you want... tethered or wireless. That seems to me to be a much better solution than "just" on the front left side of the camera.
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WOW! so seriously the controls are removable and can also operate wirelessly!? thats amazing and i applaud that effort.
now about that LCD screen...:innocent:
 
I should probably close this thread down because its really turned into something it wasnt supposed to become..

But I think I should make it clear, Brook's post personally offended alot of people at RED... people that have worked 18 hours a day weekends and holidays for the last 2 years making this entire program a reality.

Miscommunicated or not, This is not a great way to present feedback, hopefully the community as a whole will learn from it.

It would be a shame for RED to just stop listening, and for Jim to stop sharing works in progress and for him to stop keeping the entire RED development program open to you guys.
 
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