Epic Over Scarlet.... and why?

[Jonathan Pears]

So speaking hypethetically here, and not wanting it to open any can of worms.... Epic over a Scarlet and why?

So, if you were shooting at 23.974/24p and say shooting at 6:1 or 5:1, shooting at 4K lets say for this, apart from extra frame rates, and the ability to go to 5K, why would you choose Epic over Scarlet? Or wouldnt you, because you wouldnt need to?

Trying to woek out the start and finish points for the difference between the 2 for narrative. Things we know:
- Epic will do 5K and do it at higher frame rates
- Epic will go to higher RedCode at 4K, but there have been tests on how much difference you really see from 6:1 onwards i believe

For 4K capture, to 2K output at 6:1, a Scarlet handles this pretty well indeed. So why would YOU choose Epic over Scarlet for this.

Cheers

 

[Nick Morrison]

I own a Scarlet, and lust to upgrade to an Epic. I know on paper you can convince yourself they are the same (I've done it many times, I know!)...but sadly....they are not.

5K looks better than 4k. It just does.

Having access to 5K and lower compression is a huge bonus. When you are fighting noise (low light, texured backgrounds)...having 5K and lower compression are big advantages.

And yes, sometimes you want slower frame rates, you just do...and quite frankly reframing to 3K for me on Scarlet has been a huge bust. Our shots tend to be pretty art directed so to have to swap primes and re-adjust for the 3k crop (not to mention lower compression) has been a huge pain.

I'd much rather shoot 5K 48fps than 3K 48fps.

But that's just me.

For 4K interviews and broll, Scarlet has been killer yes.

But for commercials....I personally need an Epic and see a big difference.

 

[Jonathan Pears]

I believe that Elysium was shot at 3.3K.... so why didnt they think that 5K looked better?

I think there are some unanswered theories as to what should be used and why. 5K is more resolution, but to say that more resolution is always going to be better is a dangerous road to go down for shooting. 2.8K for Alexa seems to be doing a good job at some amazing work right now...

But again, as in my initial post, for 4K 6:1 capture, why Epic over Scarlet?

 

[Michael Jarvis]

Where did you hear that is was shot at 3.3K? I think this may not be correct. Its on the RED website discussing finishing in 4K. They would not shoot in 3K and finish in 4. Anyway, it makes no sense for them to shoot 3.3K. Just curious where you heard that.

Haven't seen the movie yet…but might tonight.

One big advantage is FOV. Epic will look much better, less noise at 5K and of coarse over cranking.

 

[Andy White]

Elysium was shot 5K ana.

Whilst not '5K' - 5K ana is only on the Epic... so that's another reason to shoot on it

 

[Jonathan Pears]

Here is the article on StudioDaily - http://www.studiodaily.com/2013/07/how-elysiums-4k-di-integrated-editorial-and-vfx/

And i quote: "Some parts of the film were shot with the Canon 5D and helmet-cams, but most of it was shot anamorphic on the Red Epic. The Epic is a 5K camera, but Elysium shot 3.3K in the end. The scope aspect ratio is 3296×1350 [squeezed down from 3296x2700 when recorded anamorphically] so we worked in 3.3K and upres'd it to 4K. That was a pretty small step up, and it shows up very well. It was amazing on a huge screen — I'm quite impressed with Red at this point, and what they're able to do with their cameras."

 

[Jonathan Pears]

Guys, please, i'm not starting a thread that says that 5K isnt a nicer resolution for things, i am asking about shooting 4K 6:1 at 23.976.... What would make you choose Epic over Scarlet? The fact that the Epic shoots at 5K has no relevence in this specific context....

 

[Mike P.]

Elysium was 3.3k because they shot anamorphically.

You're kind of answering your own question; if you're going to limit the Epic to shoot at Scarlet framerates/resolution/compression ratio, you'd be kind of stupid to spend the extra money. HOWEVER, if you're planning on renting or do more than just "in-house" jobs, you will not get them based solely on your Scarlet (whereas with an Epic, at least you're competing with real rental houses, who in my limited experience generally don't own/rent Scarlets unless on consignment.)

 

[Jonathan Pears]

Mike

Exactly the points i was looking for regarding Epic. Food for thought there for sure.... Thanks!

 

[Nick Morrison]

I believe that Elysium was shot at 3.3K.... so why didnt they think that 5K looked better?

I think there are some unanswered theories as to what should be used and why. 5K is more resolution, but to say that more resolution is always going to be better is a dangerous road to go down for shooting. 2.8K for Alexa seems to be doing a good job at some amazing work right now...

But again, as in my initial post, for 4K 6:1 capture, why Epic over Scarlet?

Jonathan, couple of things.

1) Yes Ellysium was shot 5k anamorphic...which is approx 3.3k....but that was also the max resolution they could get. Similarly, it's pretty common for features shooting spherical to capture in 5K (for the same reason, to get the most resolution possible).

2) I completely agree with you however. Sorry for not being clear. If you're shooting 4K 6:1, the Scarlet and Epic IMHO will look very similar. This trailer I directed was shot 4k 6:1 across two Epics and a Scarlet...and in the grade we found them almost impossible to tell apart:

3) That being said, 5K on MX will give you less noise and cleaner blacks vs 4K (you're using the complete sensor as it was designed), so there is a technical difference between them...which you seem aware of already. But when comparing apples to apples at 4K yes you are correct, very similar.

Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[PatrickFaith]

I really love both my scarlet and my epic. In the attached pictures you can see my scarlet which is configured as a view camera. The shot of the glass is using the scarlet, the shot of the scarlet is using my epic monochrome. My favorite thing on the scarlet is i can use all my epic pieces. I am cutting back and forth in my film between the scarlet in view camera mode and the epic monochrome, I am finding what is "around" the camera to often be more important then the actual camera. This ability of connecting almost anything to RED due to the component nature of how Red does things … is what I'm finding the key to putting the right tools together to tell my story.

btw … the "dots" on the leafs on the glass are due to the glass printing process and are actually on the real glass (not digital artifacts).

 

[Mike Garrick]

A question you should consider, what are your end deliverables ?

If it is TV SD/HD ( IMO majority of users ) do you really need all that extra rez ? If its 2K cinema than maybe Epic but Scarlet can still play here. If its web shoot Go Pro ; ) !

But if you want extended frame rates then Epic is where it is at.

OR when you have a job requiring it, hire it in & save a heap of cash ready for a dragon upgrade.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

For me…two very simple things….FOV and noise. Both Scarlet and Epic make great images…I like the Epics over all look with a wider FOV and less noise. If you only plan on shooting 4K and your happy with the FOV and noise….get a Scarlet. Don't get me wrong, I own a Scarlet, and love it. I am also well aware of its short comings and have my sights set on slaying a dragon.

 

[Jonathan Pears]

I say 5K is a dangerous road, because i think as RedUsers we can sometimes get carried away with our resolution stats Purely from the point of view that sometimes (not specifically here in this thread) but in general, i get a feel that the idea of higher resolution gets carried away without stopping and looking at its needed applications. Again i come back to the Alexa, and examples of movies like Collateral (one of the films that i am completely in love with) shot in HD on Thomson and Sony F900/950. If you were to reshoot Collateral in 5K, would it look better?

No doubt, 5K looks amazing for a lot of applications, and 6K will look even better. I think an underlying question is - where are we heading? Is more resolution always going to be seen as better? And if it is, why do we still see so many amazing works on Alexa at a much lower resolution?

I love my red, i love what it can do, but these questions are still very valid to me when we take on new projects.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

I'll tell ya one thing, I'll enjoy 4 5 and 6K a lot more when I finally get a monitor that I can view it on.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I say 5K is a dangerous road, because i think as RedUsers we can sometimes get carried away with our resolution stats Purely from the point of view that sometimes (not specifically here in this thread) but in general, i get a feel that the idea of higher resolution gets carried away without stopping and looking at its needed applications. Again i come back to the Alexa, and examples of movies like Collateral (one of the films that i am completely in love with) shot in HD on Thomson and Sony F900/950. If you were to reshoot Collateral in 5K, would it look better?

No doubt, 5K looks amazing for a lot of applications, and 6K will look even better. I think an underlying question is - where are we heading? Is more resolution always going to be seen as better? And if it is, why do we still see so many amazing works on Alexa at a much lower resolution?

I love my red, i love what it can do, but these questions are still very valid to me when we take on new projects.

You bring up intriguing questions Jonathan, and I'm not sure there are easy answers. Yes 6K may be overkill, but by embracing it you get a cleaner image, richer blacks and less noise.

All my deliverables are 1080, and so I'm not concerned with any particular "K" myself. Though I do try and keep in mind the compromises I'm making when I chose a particular format (for example I enjoy using 16mm zooms at 2k, and accept the degraded image and extra noise this entails).

RED in the end is about choices, which I appreciate. You can have 300fps, but you'll need to shoot at 2k. You can have a super clean image, but you'll need to work with a massive canvas (6k, 5k, etc). You can also save money and shoot 4K on a Scarlet.

I'm not sure there is a definitive answer, to be honest.

Also, keep in mind, Dragon appears to be 6K for a well thought out reason...not simply bigger for bigger sake. As we enter this new 4K paradigm, having clean debayered 5K masters will become imperative...especially on VFX heavy productions that expect a 10 to 20% "reframe" area. The only way to debayer clean 5K is to start at 6K RAW (at least on RED).

So know...Dragon 6K appears well thought out...and not just recklessly large!