EPIC Noise/Grain

[Rami Mustakim]

 

[Saurabh Pandey]

This is a Great post! I hope this helps me solving my noise issues. will test with my epic today. thanks all of you!

 

[Priit Joesaar]

Ok, Im sorry, I am quite new in this and was reading the whole topic here. In conclusion, let me ask: If I want to shoot in the dark and have only the object exposed (see example of Band of Brothers interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMUbF0ItdT0) and I want the blacks have no noise. What would be the best settings? ISO, compression, etc.
Ive been a sony ex 1 user for 5 years and its crazy easy to achive that with this camera. Now starting to use an Epic but would really appreciate some know how? I was suspecting that with red it´s also more simple, but recently saw again some very noisy red images and despite reading the posts here I still don´t quite get it. Thanks alot!

 

[Rubén Molina]

Hi Priit,

In big terms, ISO 800 is a good spot where you get more dinamic range, but If you can control the light, go always 320 and minimum redcode.

The MX is very clean at 320ISO if you exposed centered (and always helps a bit if you expose a little to the right)

The Dragon it's more noisy on black areas. If you go with an Epic Dragon no problem. Shoot 6K 4:1/5:1 and it's easier to get a clean image (better results with the Low Light OLPF). If you go with a Scalert Dragon be carefull! Even at 320ISO you need to expose to the right and then crush the blacks a little in post because the minimum compression ratios are very high.

Best regards,

Rubén

 

[David Mullen ASC]

There's noise that seems to come from black shading problems, and then there is the basic noise related to exposure. Assuming you have done the black shading correctly, then it should be easy to test the camera to find an ISO setting & noise level that you can live with.

I think there are two areas that burn people -- one is overall underexposure and the other is lifting or brightening the blacks in post in an attempt to find detail in there, in other words, not using the right amount of fill light in order to keep your black level set normally for the expected noise level at that ISO setting. Because if you've tested the camera and found that the overall noise level, when viewing the image with the intended gamma for the contrast you want, is good at, let's say 800 ISO, it shouldn't matter if the actor steps in front of a black curtain or turns off the lights in the room within the shot, etc. It would only get bad if your exposure was too low and you tried to brighten the image in post, or the shadows were too dark and you tried to lift them in post. In either case, you are defacto rating the camera at a higher ISO, at least for the shadows, and thus getting noise.

Since the opposite is true, that darkening the overall image or shadows will reduce noise, then one solution is to give the image a decent exposure as long as you aren't clipping your highlights. Or use a bit more fill in the shadows and then lower the black level in post to compensate. Or use a lower ISO setting.

If you shoot some tests, have a black reference in the frame or try putting the lens cap over the lens at the end of the take, you can't get much blacker than that.

Also keep in mind that since visibility of noise in the shadows is related to black level, you should view your tests both in log gamma in order to see everything in the shadows, knowing that the noise in the blacks will be the most obvious, and then also in the final display gamma so that you see the black level and noise that can be seen in the shadows for the final image. Because I think some people are expecting completely noiseless images even when viewing log, which is not realistic -- I mean, you could get that with a lot of exposure and clips highlights, but then what's the point, you've got an unattractive image that happens to be noise-free.

From shooting film and relying on a light meter, I found that one has to "know oneself" in terms of exposure tendencies. I think after years of color-correcting your work, you tend to find out if you err (and everyone errs) on the side of more or less exposure. Knowing this, you can counteract your tendency -- for example, if you tend to make mistakes by underexposing, you probably should work at a lower ISO to begin with. If you tend to err on the side of clipping highlights, you might try working at a higher ISO. If you tend to not use enough fill light, you might try a display LUT that crushes your blacks a little, forcing you to add more fill to compensate (as long as you are aware you are hiding the noise more on the monitor by doing that.) Or you might want to get into the habit of toggling between a display LUT and seeing raw/log.

 

[John Brennick]

Hello Mr. Mullen,

One of the biggest treats I find is getting to read your insight and views on lighting... Your opinion is soo valuable and I wanted to say thanks for taking the time for being so elaborate in your answers... It helps more than you know! I just wanted to tell you how appreciated you are. I hope you're doing well.

Best,

-John

 

[Zeb B]

There's noise that seems to come from black shading problems, and then there is the basic noise related to exposure. Assuming you have done the black shading correctly, then it should be easy to test the camera to find an ISO setting & noise level that you can live with.

I think there are two areas that burn people -- one is overall underexposure and the other is lifting or brightening the blacks in post in an attempt to find detail in there, in other words, not using the right amount of fill light in order to keep your black level set normally for the expected noise level at that ISO setting. Because if you've tested the camera and found that the overall noise level, when viewing the image with the intended gamma for the contrast you want, is good at, let's say 800 ISO, it shouldn't matter if the actor steps in front of a black curtain or turns off the lights in the room within the shot, etc. It would only get bad if your exposure was too low and you tried to brighten the image in post, or the shadows were too dark and you tried to lift them in post. In either case, you are defacto rating the camera at a higher ISO, at least for the shadows, and thus getting noise.

Since the opposite is true, that darkening the overall image or shadows will reduce noise, then one solution is to give the image a decent exposure as long as you aren't clipping your highlights. Or use a bit more fill in the shadows and then lower the black level in post to compensate. Or use a lower ISO setting.

If you shoot some tests, have a black reference in the frame or try putting the lens cap over the lens at the end of the take, you can't get much blacker than that.

Also keep in mind that since visibility of noise in the shadows is related to black level, you should view your tests both in log gamma in order to see everything in the shadows, knowing that the noise in the blacks will be the most obvious, and then also in the final display gamma so that you see the black level and noise that can be seen in the shadows for the final image. Because I think some people are expecting completely noiseless images even when viewing log, which is not realistic -- I mean, you could get that with a lot of exposure and clips highlights, but then what's the point, you've got an unattractive image that happens to be noise-free.

From shooting film and relying on a light meter, I found that one has to "know oneself" in terms of exposure tendencies. I think after years of color-correcting your work, you tend to find out if you err (and everyone errs) on the side of more or less exposure. Knowing this, you can counteract your tendency -- for example, if you tend to make mistakes by underexposing, you probably should work at a lower ISO to begin with. If you tend to err on the side of clipping highlights, you might try working at a higher ISO. If you tend to not use enough fill light, you might try a display LUT that crushes your blacks a little, forcing you to add more fill to compensate (as long as you are aware you are hiding the noise more on the monitor by doing that.) Or you might want to get into the habit of toggling between a display LUT and seeing raw/log.

Make that a Sticky