Epic MX crossgrade to Raven?

[Lucas Wilkinson]

I currently have an Epic MX kit and due to funds and timing I couldn't get a Dragon upgrade before they shut it down. Now with the release of the Raven I'm thinking that a crossgrade might be a viable option as Weapon right now is out of my price range.
I mainly shoot action sports so I'm usually shooting 4k 100fps at 7:1 redcode, rarely shoot 5k and use EF mount lenses exclusively.

So a few questions for my fellow Redusers:
Will 13:1 compression be too much? I mostly shoot outdoors with ample natural light.
Is the dragon sensor really 'that' much better than the MX?
Is the Raven sensor the same crop as 4k on the epic?
Will there be another DSMC2 body above to fill the gap between Raven and Weapon?

I could sell my MX package for the price of a good Raven package so I'm serisouly considering this option.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Have they already shut the Dragon upgrade down?

IF (!) you see a "cross grade" I think you are likely to find it unattractively expensive since you are really turning in one camera for a completely different camera; whereas the upgrades were putting new sensors in the old camera body. For that alone, the price was $500.

EDIT: Oops - just caught my own typo - should say $9500!!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I currently have an Epic MX kit and due to funds and timing I couldn't get a Dragon upgrade before they shut it down. Now with the release of the Raven I'm thinking that a crossgrade might be a viable option as Weapon right now is out of my price range.
I mainly shoot action sports so I'm usually shooting 4k 100fps at 7:1 redcode, rarely shoot 5k and use EF mount lenses exclusively.

So a few questions for my fellow Redusers:
Will 13:1 compression be too much? I mostly shoot outdoors with ample natural light.
Is the dragon sensor really 'that' much better than the MX?
Is the Raven sensor the same crop as 4k on the epic?
Will there be another DSMC2 body above to fill the gap between Raven and Weapon?

I could sell my MX package for the price of a good Raven package so I'm serisouly considering this option.

As for the other questions...

1) Dragon compressions yielded much better results than MX compressions so who is to say whether the Weapon / Raven comparisons might be even better. So, it's hard to answer that question yet. Maybe someone with a Weapon can chime in.

2) Opinions vary but I think the prevailing one is that Dragon is a noticeably better sensor than MX; although it takes some getting used to to get the best results.

3) Raven will be a 4K crop of Dragon but NOT of MX. Pixel size on Dragon is smaller. Raven is smaller than the S35 of 4K MX or 5K Dragon.

4) Many of us are hoping there will be a body between Raven and Weapon, and there have been promising hints of such, but nothing definite has been declared.

 

[Nathan DuMoulin]

Will 13:1 compression be too much?

Look 3 threads down and you'll find an entire discussion about this.

Or just go here directly: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?136694-Raven-Redcode-Ratios

 

[Jacob Callaghan]

I am in the same boat manly shoot action sports out doors at high frame rates. I think i am going to jump on the raven. Although i think the dragon sensor is killer, i love the mx sensor and it has produced very pleasing results for me. The reason i am switching to raven is the weight saving 2lbs is tremendous along with the built in mics makes it a big upgrade from my mx.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I currently have an Epic MX kit and due to funds and timing I couldn't get a Dragon upgrade before they shut it down. Now with the release of the Raven I'm thinking that a crossgrade might be a viable option as Weapon right now is out of my price range.
I mainly shoot action sports so I'm usually shooting 4k 100fps at 7:1 redcode, rarely shoot 5k and use EF mount lenses exclusively.

So a few questions for my fellow Redusers:
Will 13:1 compression be too much? I mostly shoot outdoors with ample natural light.
Is the dragon sensor really 'that' much better than the MX?
Is the Raven sensor the same crop as 4k on the epic?
Will there be another DSMC2 body above to fill the gap between Raven and Weapon?

I could sell my MX package for the price of a good Raven package so I'm serisouly considering this option.

I shoot on snow all winter, action sports as well. You will be fine with 13:1. Those who complain about losing details are doing something different. I've never had an issue.

I personally like the look of the MX, but I've loved what extra room the Dragon gives me in terms of DR.

It's a bit more of a crop than it is on the MX. However I still shot a lot of 4K on the Epic Dragon and it doesn't bother me in terms of crop.

Jarred hinted at another camera that would be an upgrade for the Scarlet Dragon family.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

It's vitally important to remember that REDCODE is not a blanket compression scheme. IT WILL NOT COMPRESS EVERY IMAGE IN THE SAME WAY. I highly recommend that everyone check out Gavin Greenwalts thread on compression for more information. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?124071-Compression-Wedges

But the most important thing to remember is that the more detail in the scene, the lower your compression will have to be to get "equivalent" IQ to a scene that has less detail. In practice, this means that Jeffery Loewe's mostly all white frames (because he shoots mostly in snow) will require significantly less compression then someone shooting inside a football stadium with tons of small details filling up every inch of every frame. So unfortunately only you can answer the question of if 13:1 is good enough for you.

Your delivery format is also very important to consider. If you are releasing your content online you can afford to compress higher. But if you're releasing theatrically then you must compress basically as low as you can afford to.

 

[sam karr]

In practice, this means that Jeffery Loewe's mostly all white frames (because he shoots mostly in snow) will require significantly less compression then someone shooting inside a football stadium with tons of small details filling up every inch of every frame. So unfortunately only you can answer the question of if 13:1 is good enough for you.

Exactly.
And the noise appears in the shadows.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Exactly.
And the noise appears in the shadows.

Yes, that too. But some of that can be remedied by staying on top of your blackshading. Right after a fresh black shade, I get about 14.5-15 stops of DR according to the gioscope and my standard for noise, but with an old or incorrect blackshade that number gets closer to 13.5 stops of DR. (Judged by looking at the bottom chips in the gioscope with a sensor cap on.) Unless my methodology is faulty, you can use this system to find where on the cameras 16 stops of potential DR the actual black point lays, then you can figure out how much DR you are actually working with at any given time (knowing that the clip point always remains the same).

Also: Should note that I've only done that test with the STH as I never shoot LLO so I rarely have it installed in camera.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

It's vitally important to remember that REDCODE is not a blanket compression scheme. IT WILL NOT COMPRESS EVERY IMAGE IN THE SAME WAY. I highly recommend that everyone check out Gavin Greenwalts thread on compression for more information. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?124071-Compression-Wedges

But the most important thing to remember is that the more detail in the scene, the lower your compression will have to be to get "equivalent" IQ to a scene that has less detail. In practice, this means that Jeffery Loewe's mostly all white frames (because he shoots mostly in snow) will require significantly less compression then someone shooting inside a football stadium with tons of small details filling up every inch of every frame. So unfortunately only you can answer the question of if 13:1 is good enough for you.

Your delivery format is also very important to consider. If you are releasing your content online you can afford to compress higher. But if you're releasing theatrically then you must compress basically as low as you can afford to.

I've shot 13:1 plenty. Even in highly detailed scenes and still never had an issue. I might shoot a lot on snow but it doesn't mean there aren't other things around. Maybe I'm just way less picky but I can't really recall ever looking back and being disappointed in a shot for compression. It's usually light, my framing, or something else user created.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

If I may ask, what do you deliver to?

I can only tell from my own experiences, but as a general statement I usually find at around 10:1 I can start to tell a difference on my 31" 1080P screen.
However, on an my iPad (an older model, dont remember specifically), I cant really tell the difference until about 14:1 and on my iPhone 5s I cant tell until about 16:1. I'm sure that I notice it more then the average person because I know what I'm looking for but the point remains the same. If you want super clean 4k@120FPS delivered to the big screen then you probably shouldn't shoot at 13:1.

That being said, I'm shooting my first project for theatrical delivery in a few weeks and I plan to shoot 6kHD 5:1 even though we will be delivering a 2k scope. I made this decision because we are shooting about 3/4 of the movie in a forest and about half of that takes place at night. Therefore, I know that the detail in the grass, trees, and leaves will east up most of the bandwith, and shooting mostly low key setups at night will accentuate any noise that already may be apparent. Therefore, the added data load is absolutely worth the cost in order to ensure the cleanest possible image. That's how I usually go about deciding what REDCODE to shoot. What are my shooting conditions, and what am I delivering too?

Edit: Sorry forgot to ask, do you deal with a lot of shadow areas in your images? I've found lowkey setups have a better chance of running into issues then high key setups.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

If I may ask, what do you deliver to?

I can only tell from my own experiences, but as a general statement I usually find at around 10:1 I can start to tell a difference on my 31" 1080P screen.
However, on an my iPad (an older model, dont remember specifically), I cant really tell the difference until about 14:1 and on my iPhone 5s I cant tell until about 16:1. I'm sure that I notice it more then the average person because I know what I'm looking for but the point remains the same. If you want super clean 4k@120FPS delivered to the big screen then you probably shouldn't shoot at 13:1.

That being said, I'm shooting my first project for theatrical delivery in a few weeks and I plan to shoot 6kHD 5:1 even though we will be delivering a 2k scope. I made this decision because we are shooting about 3/4 of the movie in a forest and about half of that takes place at night. Therefore, I know that the detail in the grass, trees, and leaves will east up most of the bandwith, and shooting mostly low key setups at night will accentuate any noise that already may be apparent. Therefore, the added data load is absolutely worth the cost in order to ensure the cleanest possible image. That's how I usually go about deciding what REDCODE to shoot. What are my shooting conditions, and what am I delivering too?

Edit: Sorry forgot to ask, do you deal with a lot of shadow areas in your images? I've found lowkey setups have a better chance of running into issues then high key setups.

I don't mind.

I shoot for multiple things. Web Release, full projected film tours, 4K presentations at CEDIA, really anything and everything.

I do deal with a lot of shadow's. And again I don't feel like I find issues in my content. I do at times, but like I said I feel like most of the errors I encounter are user generated. Sometimes I shoot straight up in the dark with only event lighting and still come away really happy with the results.

 

[Lucas Wilkinson]

Curious. What has been said to indicate a mid range RED between Raven and Weapon? Has Jarred implied that this is going to happen at some point?

 

[sam karr]

Curious. What has been said to indicate a mid range RED between Raven and Weapon? Has Jarred implied that this is going to happen at some point?

Jarred in the Raven thread: "Epic has a path forward into the new form factor, Scarlet will see a path forward to the new form factor".