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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic module request...epic idea

Zakaree Sandberg

Zakaree Sandberg

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I know there was talks of a prores module at one point..id like to add onto this discussion a better idea.
Id love to see a module that can make any of the popular file formats or whatever you upload.

So the camera shoots 5k r3d files to the ssd media, and the module records, say...avid DNxHD 36 8bit to cf cards.

This of course, only if the camera cant dual write to the ssd card eliminating the need for an extra module.
 
Knowing Red they have been on it already (just speculation- no inside info)
 
If it only worked as advertised....
Anyway I think Zak meant R3D 5K files to various formats- not video assist signal- there is a major difference.....
 
Does the Epic (and RED MX for that matter), do a full deBayer before the HDMI signal output???

Stephen
 
I think the hdmi out is a separate signal from the sensor...its not taking the raw image and turning it into 1080.
Theres different paths, one moves through the system to capture via r3d and tge other spits out a 1080 image
 
no module is really needed, i guess the convenience of being able to slap it on as a actual piece of a camera rather than something dangling off. but I think a better recommendation would be to have RED or lobby to the companies that make external recorders to follow the way of the ki mini and retain all RED metadata including file name on the record via sdi, so you can have instantaneous offline files for editorial as you are shooting. lower debayer quality is of no consequence if it's just for editorial. If people want a "debayer" module to create instant fully debayered quicktimes, than that's a different story. and kind of defeats the purpose of shooting 5k raw... when you can just do that in post, and gain RAW manipulation and 5k re cropping if you need it. and it would probably incur a lot of people to not even shoot the r3ds and just go for the 1080p which RED has always been against...
 
yep, a module that does what the kimini would be great, less cables would be very practical. Red should get the module connectors diagram to other companies so that they can design custom modules.
 
For TV work the monitoring signal is inadequate especially compared to Alexa and such. Like it or not 1080p is the delivery format for TV and it will remain it in short term.
Such fully debayered properly scaled files would do wonders for Red in TV industry....
 
Slippery slope alert

Slippery slope alert

No doubt, a module that wrote ProRes or DNxHD 1080 files would be popular - particularly for TV work. That said, there are more reasons for Alexa's popularity in TV than just being able to write ProRes files on the fly. No matter how much I may love working with the Epic, for a lot of veteran DPs the familiarity of the Arri built Alexa is compelling. It would be easy to argue that the Epic does so much more, but for some DPs that is not the cheese. No offense to RED, they can't help having done so much so fast ;-), but 4 years of making cameras is just not the same as decades of excellence from Arri. While I share the consensus around here that Arri talks out of both sides of their mouth about resolution, they are still Arri. Never forget that our business is like most others, people want to cover their butts and Arri is considered a safe choice.

What's my point? I would prefer to see RED and its users embrace the power of a high resolution RAW workflow. As Mike Most and others have noted posting R3Ds is not actually more difficult that other post paths, it is merely seen that way. Is it harder to change minds than to fall in line? Sure, but IMO RED has never been about dumbing down to suit entrenched stakeholders but rather about finding a better way.

Cheers - #19
 
What's wrong with HW encoder using " TV LUTs" for TV work? Or a custom ones created by the DP? How is it different than RR and editing suite? It would be faster for sure....
 
I like mine RAW!

I like mine RAW!

OptiTek said:
What's wrong with HW encoder using " TV LUTs" for TV work? Or a custom ones created by the DP? How is it different than RR and editing suite? It would be faster for sure....
Click to expand...

IF the debayer quality made possible by the ASIC in the Epic is first rate and care is taken to create quality LUTs that can be loaded into the camera itself then OK. I still think you are leaving some of the IQ on the table (there is an "informed algorithm" issue here) but I can see the argument that a 1080 rec 709 master for TV probably isn't capable of showing every nuance anyway.

It is entirely possible that my affinity for the "virtual darkroom" aspect of creating evocative images colors (sic) my take on the subject. The Gestalt approach I prefer encompasses that color grading step as an inextricable part of the process of authoring the image. Yes, I know you can grade RGB material, but grading RAW (particularly the 16bit Epic material) is so much more powerful.

Cheers - #!9
 
Isn't grading taken care of by the LUT? I've seen "Gestalt" grading so screwed up so many times that I'm sure it was not the DP's plan and he/she would much prefer to retain the "LUT control" for final product....
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
As Mike Most and others have noted posting R3Ds is not actually more difficult that other post paths, it is merely seen that way.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

does avid edit r3d files?

Almost every commercial I do is now AVID. and the new common sneak attack by post facilities is to get the DIT to do the transcoding for them, so rather than being on set helping the dp out with exposure decisions or camera settings, running video lines, and helping out the crew, im stuck in a hot ass tent or truck shuffling multi camera cards around from my back up machine to my rocket machine, and my day is spent.

Id rather have the camera auto pump out the offline edit files (DNxHD) and all i have to worry about is making sure that data makes it onto multiple drives.



PS.. biggest pet peeve = being asked to transcode alexa files.. GFYS post
 
OptiTek said:
Isn't grading taken care of by the LUT? I've seen "Gestalt" grading so screwed up so many times that I'm sure it was not the DP's plan and he/she would much prefer to retain the "LUT control" for final product....
Click to expand...

yes basically pop off a shot in pre light or 1st up in the day, do a grade, plop that lut into the camera, BAM!! done deal.

ESPECIALLY for TV.. stage = lut through out the series, location home interior tungsten = lut throughout the series, location home exterior day so on so on..

commercials = a little harder... 1 - 3 day shoots.. multiple locations.. not much time to really get in make a final look and set it, but FOR SURE a quick reference for dailies/offline edits
 
With all due respect.

F*XK The KiPro.

Red should make a module that does exactly what Zak is asking for, and records on SxS cards in ProRes or Avid.

I'd call it the Instant Dailies module.

All that external shit is garbage.

One key to red Workflow on set is the fact that it doesn't need an off board recorder.
 
Dan Kanes said:
With all due respect.

F*XK The KiPro.

Red should make a module that does exactly what Zak is asking for, and records on SxS cards in ProRes or Avid.

I'd call it the Instant Dailies module.

All that external shit is garbage.

One key to red Workflow on set is the fact that it doesn't need an off board recorder.
Click to expand...


exactly.. any external recorder is just BS.. AC's dont want that shit dangling, nore do OPS with a camera on their shoulder.

the main thing here is getting offline files made on the fly
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
does avid edit r3d files?

Almost every commercial I do is now AVID. and the new common sneak attack by post facilities is to get the DIT to do the transcoding for them, so rather than being on set helping the dp out with exposure decisions or camera settings, running video lines, and helping out the crew, im stuck in a hot ass tent or truck shuffling multi camera cards around from my back up machine to my rocket machine, and my day is spent.

Id rather have the camera auto pump out the offline edit files (DNxHD) and all i have to worry about is making sure that data makes it onto multiple drives.



PS.. biggest pet peeve = being asked to transcode alexa files.. GFYS post
Click to expand...

Yes, Avid can edit R3D natively but there's still more work to be done there. :-)

There should be no sneak attack Zak. Is this part of the process not being communicated until you get to set? It shouldn't be the case. That's a part of the process that needs to be discussed ahead of time so you can plan for it, and also charge accordingly. You mentioned commercials, which I admit can sometimes be a bit tricky, especially when you're brought on late in the game and then you're only on for a few days at most. I don't feel transcoding is a given. As a DIT your priorities are making sure the DP is getting what they want out of the images, making sure the camera is setup properly in terms of image settings, making sure the monitoring chain is getting the images properly, and if you are taking on the role of data manager as well, then that too becomes a top priority. Transcoding is something that should fall below all the rest in priority list, but if your system is setup for it and it can be done while getting the other things accomplished as well, then that's fine but you should make sure you are compensated for it because at that point you are essentially a dailies house as well. I know each situation is different and perhaps that's not the way everyone feels, but that's how I see it.

As for the Alexa transcoding, I had a client hat chose Alexa over RED because they didn't want to transcode files. Then at last second post said they didn't want to deal with ProRes 444 for editorial so they ended up transcoding on set down to ProRes 422. Too funny!
 
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