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EPIC & High end digital photography Phase one/LEAF/Profoto

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laurent couturier

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Hi everyone :)

i don't know if many of us do still photography as a living, but i was wondering how close could be the quality of the final epic camera in still mode compare to medium format digital back ( leaf/phase one) The thing is i'll go to a photo school in about a year and i'll get soon the budget to buy my photo digital equipement .

So i don't know if instead of buying a digital back i should consider an epic camera/scarlet camera FF35 knowing that 10 years ago i studied film, it could be the right tool :)

I had the idea to get a phase one P45 ( 39M pixels ) and a 1ds mark3 + ef L series . But i'm not so sure nowadays ... As it is an important purchase !!!!

first i was wondering if the epic camera would be compatible with profoto equipement and all the regular studio tools pocket wizards ?

I got an xtr prod and a arri BL4, and these days many told me : Hey you should sell everything and get a Red1 or an epic camera !!!

The idea is not going on this ridiculous battle digital vs film, but to find the right solution for after as in still photography, now it's all digital workflow for commercial/editorial assignements . Only personnal works are still in film .

It's not bad, bad, it's just evolution, and soemtimes some orders can be made with film stock .

In motion pictures both film and digital have enough room to work together IMHO so far, maybe it will change one day, but film is unique, and it's not about the "film look" as we can all emulate this in post production, but it's more about the unique specificity of the media itself .

So i would like to have your opinion and especially the one from Mr Jannard, as he's known to be fond of photography, maybe he has already tested the epic with the actual digital backs on the market, and of course the high end DSLR canon/nikon .

I know the epic/scarlet FF35 is primarly dedicated to motion pictures shooting, but if i got it right, they also wanted to have a bridge with still photography .

So any informations would be great useful and nice
Maybe i shall consider to get a scarlet FF35 or an epic, then i'll use my PL lenses on it

this is the school i'll go in september 2011 www.speos.fr
then i'll start my business in photography & cinematography .

thank you everyone .
 
My personal belief is that Digital MF is going the way of the dodo. When you can kick 50mb TIFF's out of a D3x or 1ds there is no real need to have the MF system other than the familiarity of it.
Where it will come back into fashion is when the Epic 645 is produced as it is a versatile movie format at the same time.

If your considering an Epic for stills then you will be happy with a d3s or d3x for your studio work, my ideal setup would be an Epic, a D3x and a D3s with a range of Nikon Primes as your covered for both stills, motion and lightweight running.

I don't know of any agency that will require a Medium format system for Advertising or Fashion. Every one is happy with anything from the top end FX systems. Most are also happy for shots from 12 mp upwards in fact as long as they pass QC.
 
Thank you Jay

Well i was thinking about a digital back, as i've got a mamiya afd, an RZ pro2D, and a sinar P, so i could use a digital solution for all these tools .
As i do use a canon eos 1V, i was thinking about canon L lenses .

I know in cinematography we use more nikon lenses, as the mount has always been available . Now the ef mount is also an option with the red cameras .

Thing is i can't wait, wait, wait, wait that the red compagny launch their product ( epic 645 ) I'll finish school in may 2012, maybe i should just get a canon 5Dmark2 to start, then upgrade my equipement after

But i'm wondering a lot about the compatibility with the profoto equipement, as i'm going to buy all the head strobes/generator/accessories in fall .

thank you
 
Yep I totally understand where your coming from. Only thing that I would say is particularly as a student value for money is a large factor. A good digital back will cost you as much as two DSLR bodies, leaving you money for good glass which is always the most important feature in any setup.

If medium format is the system that suits you best please don't let me discourage you from it. Have you used any of the new high end studio cameras though? D3x or 1ds3? If you haven't I would encourage you to rent them for a weekend and see how you feel with the quality and flexibility of them, they have improved massively in recent years.

A 5d Mk 2 is also a good investment as a starting system, if your looking at an all in one system for both your video and stills I would have a very hard time not recommending you a 5d and a 1d4 duo and a lot of good glass, it would be a fantastic system for any student project and any starting reel.
 
Check out pentax 645d. Sub $10000 and uses same 39 megapixel kodak sensor in most medium format digital backs. Has some excellent new lenses as well as excellent lenses from the film 645s.

Epic-x is aps size sensor. Epic monstro Ff and 645 will be formidable beasts but quite a ways off.
 
Money is not an issue, but it's not a reason either to make a waste !!! I'm not a regular student as I've got a work on the side to finance my study/equipment, more i'll get a bank loan for it . That's why i can't make mistakes about the tools i'll use later .

Why i'm asking these questions : here in Paris, most Studios offered phase one back, generally with HD2/HD3 cameras for shooting commercial/fashion editorials orders .

The rest outdoor is mainly dslr , but of course it depends on the photography preferences .

I don't like compromises :) i've been working 10 years to get the equipement i thought essential to make the images/visual identity i wish .

SO :) epic seems very attractive for commercial works/ music videos, but i was thinking, hey maybe i could also save money, by avoiding a costly digital back for still photography .

Photography is not so cheap, when you look closely, after it depends what kind of images you which to produce . It's still less than motion pictures cost but for an independent it's a huge, investment .

Yes i've already used 1ds mark3/phase one p45+/65+ at the photo show last november, and a phase one p30+ outdoor . I think both system dslr, and digital back have their own use, that why i've got the strong idea to get both system .

But epic is very tempting too :) :) :) for more or less the same price, that's the reason of the title MF digital back compare to epic in still mode ?

The real positive advantage over a system ( digital back + dslr ) the quality for shooting videos/films, because it's the first use . Now if the quality is equal to a 1ds mark 3/5d mark2 in still mode . I might change my mind for the epic instead a digital back . Or Scarlet FF35 has apparently the sensor will be the same in still mode !!!

I know someone who bought a canon 1D4, but i'm not so pleased by this solution . Not so nice to use for a real film production . It's a nice quality, but it has its limits .

Oh i didn't know about this pentax 645D :) nice camera system ! i loved the pentax 67 !!!! but the thing is i don't wish to change my MF system, i like mamiya A LOT ! the felxibility of a digital back . Being about to adapt different brands on it .

Now my consideration is will the epic will work with all the photo equipement, used in studio ( = profoto equipment )

Thank you
 
Well since I have sold all my Photography gear, both 35mm and MF, which then were the Canon 1D III & 1D s III, Hassy H3II 31 and Phase One 645 III Mamyia Body w/P1 DB, I now have acquired the Canon 1D IV for special work, and currently testing the Phase One with new Mamyia DF Leaf Shutter Lenses with both the Phase One P65+ DB and the Leaf Aptus II 10 DB, and the Hassy H4D 60, and While is not heavy on the MP count I love its format and also considering and testing the Leica S2 MF system.

The Epic S35 both for the Sensor size and the 13.8MP can only substitute the 35mm shots in terms of resolution, and can not will not be able to come even close to the Resolution capacity and detail of the 645 format sensor and the 60MP of the mentioned systems.

When I sold everything I was very optimistic that I would soon have my two Epic 645 camera systems for my Film work, and for my Still work, but things have taken a bit longer and now I will have two Epic-X S35 fro my film work, and some specialty shoots, the Canon 1D IV for specialty work, and the Winner out of my current systems under testing to do the very heavy work of extremely large prints, for my first Italian Gallery of CityScapes and LandScapes of Italy, as well as High Fashion and Elaborate Portraiture work.


I can tell you that I'm not haply dumping 50K on yet an other MF system, but for now I have no choice, I can most surely guarantee however that as soon the Epic 645 is out what ever system I purchase now will be sold and replaced extremely gladly by the Epic 645 system, as what Epic will offer will be absolutely Unmatched by any MF now, and most likely in any soon to be future of things, in the way traditional MF systems work.
 
Hi Ketch

That's nice to read your message and experience about equipment needs . I'll get around 40K to get my equipement, but i haven't sold my film equipement, as i don't need to be competitive now on the market, as i'm not making a living with photography so far .

But i'm really concern about the evolution of the digital technology, because it's linked to the business ( = right equipement, right brands etc etc ) I don't really mind about brands/resolution . It's not the equipement which make the photo or the film, but it contributes to the visual identity . It's just tools

Now it's always difficult to choose, let go some equipment to replace it, and wait, wait, wait, until the right solution .

Apparently, you are more involved now in film shooting than photography . Both activites takes anyway a lot of time each, it's difficult to do both at the same time .

I'm not so sure that the mamiya DF is much better than the AFD3 about hassy system, what i don't like is the fact you always have to change everything with each new model, it doesn't worth it IMHO . And hassy glass can be adapted on mamiya cameras :)

Thank you Jay for the tips about the compatibility with studio flashes, because it's a must have ! Profoto cost too much if i couldn't use it with the red products it would be a big waste !

Thank you
 
Jay Gannon said:
My personal belief is that Digital MF is going the way of the dodo. When you can kick 50mb TIFF's out of a D3x or 1ds there is no real need to have the MF system other than the familiarity of it.
Click to expand...

It's not really about the size of the file or how many pixels a FF camera has in comparison to a MF camera.

It's sensor size and respectively lens selection... angle of view and depth of field. There is a certain look that you can get on MF that you can't get on FF... no amount of megapixels is going to ever change that.

MF will never go away... it'll just get better too.
 
Michael Totten said:
It's not really about the size of the file or how many pixels a FF camera has in comparison to a MF camera.

It's sensor size and respectively lens selection... angle of view and depth of field. There is a certain look that you can get on MF that you can't get on FF... no amount of megapixels is going to ever change that.

MF will never go away... it'll just get better too.
Click to expand...

I 100% agree with this. It's not a resolution "problem" that prevents FF cameras from competing with MF for fashion and portraits, it's a physics problem (lenses, sensor size). At the same FOV, medium format looks better than FF. Since cost (of the camera system) isn't really an issue for these industries, MF still wins.

I'm dying to shoot motion fashion photography on a RED 645 camera though!!!!
 
Erich Ocean said:
I 100% agree with this. It's not a resolution "problem" that prevents FF cameras from competing with MF for fashion and portraits, it's a physics problem (lenses, sensor size). At the same FOV, medium format looks better than FF. Since cost (of the camera system) isn't really an issue for these industries, MF still wins.

I'm dying to shoot motion fashion photography on a RED 645 camera though!!!!
Click to expand...

That's why I mentioned the pentax d645, MF Dof, 39mp at a reasonable price.

I know that interchangeable back seems nice but these days it isn't much cheaper to build the low volume data backs than the whole body, not to mention that body costs are somewhat subsidized by lens sales.

I traded one of our u/w housings for a pentax 645N and a couple lenses specifically with eventual epic645 in mind.

But just playing with it I have been pretty favorably impressed with both camera and lenses.
 
What has been said here is all of great value. Nikon D3x has great resolution and great lenses available - certainly enough for almost any purpose. But there is also the truth about the physics of larger formats. There is also a different attitude and approach to photography with different format cameras, and that whole mindset changes your creative output. In my advertising still days I used only two formats - 35mm Nikon Kodachrome or TriX, and 8x10 Deardorff with Rodenstock and Schneider glass on Ektachrome and TriX. The former engendered a certain fast, fluid approach to composition and shooting that worked well for certain subjects, and the latter was a formal studied approach that produced a pristine image. There are quality digital imaging devices these days in different formats. Choosing the right tool has a lot to do with how you work and what you're comfortable with. As a side dream I wish there was a full 8x10 digital back. I have been scanning in my 8x10 transparancies in my spare (lol) time and the detail and resolution and feel is without equal.
 
It was also pretty cool what you could do for product shots by tilting the lens on bellows cameras.
 
So wish EPIC 645 was here, but since it isn't and I need a 645 System..

..well my first round of Demoing the Hassy's H4D bodies and lenses, was fun, now looking to demo out the Phase One P65+ with the Mamyia 645 DF body, and the Leaf Aptus II 10 also with the Mamyia 645DF body, and off course will give a good try to the Leica S2, since Leica so generously is lending me one for a full week.

960910197_SWCpg-X2.jpg


Thanks to David, Jeff and Matthew of Hasselblad Germany and USA for this Demo.
 
im interested this idea of the red as a stills camera.

im a photographer that shoots canon 1ds mk3 and a hasselblad h1 with a phaseone back (p25 and 45).

can someone tell me what the width in pixels an epic is?

what shutter speeds has it got?

what flash sync does it have?

how do you focus? isnt the screen only 2k?

how far away is a FF chip? as a cropped chip it really isnt very exciting.

I use the canon and the hassy for completely different shots. i use the hassy for car shoots and anything that needs detail. and ask any retoucher about the room to grade with medium format files, far better than the canon. but the canon is so good for other stuff.

i dont really see medium format disappearing any time soon, unless some great new product comes out. and medium format is far more affordable than it has ever been (except for the highest end). h3d 31II 31mp camera is only 9999usd in BHphoto.

i do see more shooting options coming up. different tools for different jobs.

i am excited about composing on a HD monitor rather than looking through the finder for certain types of shoots. very usefull.

paul
 
Epic is an S35 format motion picture camera, 30mm x 15mm sensor. Active frame at 5k is probably 5120 x 2560 pixels. Roughly a 13+mp image.
It is certainly not a replacement for a medium format still camera.
You are paying a premium for exceptional resolution, sensitivity, DR, and image quality at full motion frame rates and in common motion formats from cinemascope to HDTV.
 
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