Epic Dragon - NO audio signal from shotgun / internal mic audio for scratch

[Connor Gallagher]

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to my Epic Dragon, and come from shooting on FS7 and GH5. I am trying to get some scratch audio but having the hardest time figuring out

1) how to enable the internal mic (or is there not one on the epic dragon?). I see no settings options for this, just different Channels 1,2,3,4
2) i have a rode ntg4+ that works great on both fs7 and GH5, but I get literally zero signal when I plug it into either channel 1 or 2 on the front of the camera (using a xlr to 3.5 adapter that works great for GH5).

The only signal I get is super brief when the green bar shoots up when I plug something in and then nothing. I turned up the pre amp and tried all sorts of settings, but I just feel like I could be missing something elementary...

What am I missing? I bought this used of course, so I'm wondering if this could be an issue that existed before but I'm just now noticing it? I've only had it for a little while.

Also, I made sure varispeed is NOT on. Shooting at 23.976 both project base rate and frame rate.

Many thanks!

 

[Michael Tiemann]

1. EPIC DRAGON is a DSMC1 camera, which has no scratch audio. DSMC2 has scratch audio.

2. The fact that you see a green bar shooting up as you plug something in means that your settings are correct to record audio. If you were shooting varispeed or some other strange thing, there would be no meter deflection AT ALL. So you don't have to worry further about that.

3. The input jacks on the DSMC1 camera are mini-TRS which map to standard XLR connections (sleeve = pin 1, tip = pin 2, sleeve = pin 3). If your wire is otherwise, the DSMC1 won't like it.

4. The DSMC1 camera does not provide phantom power. (Nor does the GH5.) The NTG4+ has a battery that can supply power to the microphone. Dunno if somehow the switch got turned off somehow?

 

[Connor Gallagher]

1. EPIC DRAGON is a DSMC1 camera, which has no scratch audio. DSMC2 has scratch audio.

2. The fact that you see a green bar shooting up as you plug something in means that your settings are correct to record audio. If you were shooting varispeed or some other strange thing, there would be no meter deflection AT ALL. So you don't have to worry further about that.

3. The input jacks on the DSMC1 camera are mini-TRS which map to standard XLR connections (sleeve = pin 1, tip = pin 2, sleeve = pin 3). If your wire is otherwise, the DSMC1 won't like it.

4. The DSMC1 camera does not provide phantom power. (Nor does the GH5.) The NTG4+ has a battery that can supply power to the microphone. Dunno if somehow the switch got turned off somehow?

Thanks Michael! That clears quite a bit up for me. It sounds like you isolated the issue to my cable. I mentioned that mine is a 3.5mm to XLR male, which worked great for the GH5 (the battery inside is working properly, so it's not a power issue). Is mini-TRS different from the 3.5? I did a quick search of "mini TRS to XLR" and a cable popped up which included both "mini-TRS", "3.5mm" and "1/8" "

Just used my 3.5mm to XLR cable on the GH5 flawlessly in between these posts, so I know it is functioning properly, just not sure still if it's the correct one for DSMC1. I'm not sure I follow what you meant with this (sleeve = pin 1, tip = pin 2, sleeve = pin 3) but this is what I am using - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068NZC/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I'm a little concerned that this could be an issue with the brain...

Thanks again for the in depth help!

Cheers

 

[Michael Tiemann]

3.5mm is 1/8" mini, so that's likely not the problem. Can you feed a line-level signal (such as a laptop line output playing music) into the camera and register audio? Remember that the 3.5mm inputs on the EPIC DRAGON are not stereo line inputs, they are balanced XLRs, so you won't be recording stereo. But it might help eliminate some unknowns.

 

[Mike P.]

Just to clear up some fud; DSMC1 *does* support phantom power out of those 1/8" jacks (which is why you can't use a traditional/standard stereo 3.5mm-to-XLR).

Quickest way to get this to work would be to get a stereo3.5mm-to-mono3.5mm female/male sleeve for your current 3.5mm-to-XLR cable (actually, I think a mono-to-mono would work too... just so long as you're plugging a "mono" 3.5mm into the camera). Radio Shack/BestBuy/etc has them for a couple bucks...

Conversely, you can get a mono-3.5mm-to-XLR online (bhphoto) or you can do what everyone else does and get an A-Box from Wooden Camera (which will give you two properly power mapped 3.5mm-to-XLRs). There are properly mapped "stereo3.5-to-XLR" cables out there (by Hosa), but I forget the exact model number, and an A-box is a much better/production-friendly option anyway.

 

[Werner Jauch]

I use FORTIS BOTTOM PLATE XLR ADAPTOR COMBO with my Dragon Scarlet. Work great.
link: https://cinescopophilia.com/fortis-red-epic-scarlet-baseplate-top-plate-with-xlr-inputs/

 

[Werner Jauch]

Alternative for pure scratch audio as another poster mentioned a cheap radioshack mono/stereo adapter and an ebay about $3 laptop mic

 

[D Fuller]

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to my Epic Dragon, and come from shooting on FS7 and GH5. I am trying to get some scratch audio but having the hardest time figuring out

1) how to enable the internal mic (or is there not one on the epic dragon?). I see no settings options for this, just different Channels 1,2,3,4
2) i have a rode ntg4+ that works great on both fs7 and GH5, but I get literally zero signal when I plug it into either channel 1 or 2 on the front of the camera (using a xlr to 3.5 adapter that works great for GH5).

The only signal I get is super brief when the green bar shoots up when I plug something in and then nothing. I turned up the pre amp and tried all sorts of settings, but I just feel like I could be missing something elementary...

What am I missing? I bought this used of course, so I'm wondering if this could be an issue that existed before but I'm just now noticing it? I've only had it for a little while.

Also, I made sure varispeed is NOT on. Shooting at 23.976 both project base rate and frame rate.

Many thanks!

The Epic Dragon, like all DSMC-1 cameras has quite good internal audio recording, but its audio is a bit "non-standard" compared to almost anything else, which has caused a lot of confusion and misunderstanding over the years. So here are a few notes and corrections:

1. There are no internal microphones.
2. Phantom power is available. You have to turn it on in the menu.
3. You have to use mic-level input. There is no line-level input. (Using line-level input, the levels will be very high, and it will be dificult to avoid overdriving the signal.)
4. You cannot use mono-wired cables. The inputs are oddly wired. Red has wired the 1/8" TRS inputs to provide balanced audio with phantom power. Thaty means that even though each is a mono input, you cannot use normal mono-wired 1/8" cables. Take a look at this link for a more complete explanation: These-Cables-Work-(And-why). Get the right wiring and they work well. Get it wrong, and you will have all kinds of trouble.
5. The preamps are OK, but not great. In practice, that means two things: 1) You need to be careful not to overdrive the audio. It gets ugly if you do, and the limiters are not best-in-class. 2) You can improve your audio noticeably by putting a device with very good preamps (that can output mic-level) in front of the camera, especially if it has good limiters, because you can run the levels a bit higher and improve the S/N ratio.

All that being said, a good-quality mic, properly wired, will give you very useable audio if you run fairly conservative levels.

 

[D Fuller]

Just to clear up some fud; DSMC1 *does* support phantom power out of those 1/8" jacks (which is why you can't use a traditional/standard stereo 3.5mm-to-XLR).

...

Conversely, you can get a mono-3.5mm-to-XLR online (bhphoto) or you can do what everyone else does and get an A-Box from Wooden Camera (which will give you two properly power mapped 3.5mm-to-XLRs). There are properly mapped "stereo3.5-to-XLR" cables out there (by Hosa), but I forget the exact model number, and an A-box is a much better/production-friendly option anyway.

Most mono 3.5mm-XLR will not work. Or more accurately, they will work sometimes, but not reliably because most are not wired to pass balanced audio, and phantom power will not be passed.

The WC A-box is great.

The correct Hosa cable is here: https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-XVS-102F-XLR3F-Right-Angle-Microphone/dp/B0010CV2FO

Red used to sell a properly-wired cable in the Red store, but I don't see it today.

If you want to understand what's going on, read this post: These-Cables-Work-(And-why)

All this information is in the DSMC-1 user's guide, but it's kinda buried.

 

[Connor Gallagher]

Such great intel from everyone, thanks so much. I did try the laptop 3.5mm to out to 3.5mm in on Mic 1 on my epic dragon and the levels were off the charts until I turned the volume down. So the inputs do seem to be working correctly. I was able to get my shotgun to register levels when I pushed the input in my options almost to the max (!). It still sounded pretty quiet and low quality when I brought it into premiere and tried to increase the gain to normal levels. It's the NTG4+, and I guess it's possible that there's some settings on the mic itself that were creating that issue, but like I said before, using the exact same setup into my GH5 3.5mm input works perfectly. So I'm wondering if it is indeed the mono issue with the specific 3.5mm to XLR adapter you all are mentioning.

I also noticed when I plugged my laptop headphone out directly in, that when I tried to drop the levels on the RED to the negatives, the lowest it would go was 30dB. Is that the difference between mic level and line level input? My lav mics are usually set to -18 to -24db, so when the lowest the RED would go was +30dB, I was quite confused.

I'm definitely planning on getting an A box, and for sure that Hosa cable. This was the first shoot I took it on, and it was mostly for beauty B roll and little need for sound, but I was using it as an opportunity to try to learn as much as possible about using it. Thanks to all of you for the great info. Cheers

 

[D Fuller]

Such great intel from everyone, thanks so much. I did try the laptop 3.5mm to out to 3.5mm in on Mic 1 on my epic dragon and the levels were off the charts until I turned the volume down. So the inputs do seem to be working correctly.

The level was monstrously high because the laptop's feeding line level, not mic level.

I was able to get my shotgun to register levels when I pushed the input in my options almost to the max (!). It still sounded pretty quiet and low quality when I brought it into premiere and tried to increase the gain to normal levels. It's the NTG4+, and I guess it's possible that there's some settings on the mic itself that were creating that issue, but like I said before, using the exact same setup into my GH5 3.5mm input works perfectly. So I'm wondering if it is indeed the mono issue with the specific 3.5mm to XLR adapter you all are mentioning.

So, there are a couple of possibilities here.

1. You need to be sure the cables are right. Read and understand the "These Cables Work..." link I posted above. Your NTG4+ can be internally powered, and the camera can supply phanom power. That combination has the potential to fry stuff if the cables are wired wrong. Look at the diagrams in the link, and test your adapter(s) with a multimeter or continuity checker. Plugging random stuff in can get expensive. And yes, a miswired adapter can make several kinds of audio problems.
2. What you describe sounds like the mic is not getting phantom power, which is almost certainly the case if the cables are mis-wired.
3. The NTG4+ can be powered by an internal battery or take phantom power. I don't know that mic well enough to know how you switch between them, but unless it auto-switches, check to be sure it's set the way you want it. The HG5 doesn't supply phantom power, so is the mic set to use its internal battery? If it were me, I'd want to use phantom power; batteries die.
4. I believe the NTG4+ has a -10db pad switch. If you have the proper cabling and the level is low, be sure it isn't on.

I also noticed when I plugged my laptop headphone out directly in, that when I tried to drop the levels on the RED to the negatives, the lowest it would go was 30dB. Is that the difference between mic level and line level input? My lav mics are usually set to -18 to -24db, so when the lowest the RED would go was +30dB, I was quite confused.

Yes, the levels were monstrously high because the laptop's feeding line level, not mic level.

I'm definitely planning on getting an A box, and for sure that Hosa cable. This was the first shoot I took it on, and it was mostly for beauty B roll and little need for sound, but I was using it as an opportunity to try to learn as much as possible about using it. Thanks to all of you for the great info. Cheers

If you get the A-box, you don't really need to get the Hosa cables. They do the same thing. The A-box is a more robust solution. It also costs 10x as much.

 

[David Peterson]

I highly doubt the laptop is outputting line level from its mic output.