Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic, dragon, efp/eng.. please adress the need for a more sensitive 5k sensor !

I hear ya Denis...

When me and my crews do mobile EFP work, especially adventure travel, action sports, and wildlife, the crew size is usually no more than two people, and frequently just one person. Mobility is critical in those situations. I remember well doing the same genres in the '80's and '90's while packing 28 to 35 pound camera systems way out into remote areas! Fortunately in the past decade the average weight of the camera systems and tripods we use has diminished.

Staying physically fit is critical for mobile EFP work - always has been, and still is. Beyond that, as you know, great backpacks are a must. Over all these decades I've used backpacks from every major manufacturer: PortaBrace, Kata, Cine Bags, Tamrac, Lowepro, etc. Me and my crews now use backpacks from Clik Elite. Clik backpacks and accessories are designed by and for mobile shooters. They're way comfortable, durable, well thought out, and just look like a good backpackers pack - which helps keep equipment security risk down to a minimum when we're way out into remote areas. My favorite Clik backpack, which I've used in remote areas all over the world for production, is the Contrejour 40. I also use a Contrejour 35 for mid-sized and smaller camera kits.

Beyond backpacks I've also adopted other ways to haul equipment way out into remote areas. I drive a longbed diesel 4x4 pickup with a small camper on it, and frequently pull a high clearance trailer with a utility ATV on it. For eco-sensitive area filming I also bring along a mountain bike that pulls a small cargo trailer, on which I strap my backpack and tripod, then just pedal out into the relative location for filming, and hike the rest of the way in.

Again, I hear you and agree - a pound saved on the equipment weight is a pound less that we have to transport. Unlike cine style (narrative, etc) or studio based hardlined EFP productions, those of us who work in mobile EFP genres don't have the luxury of large crews and easy access to shooting locations. We have to work our tails off to get out to the filming locations - but that's the reason we can take satisfaction in knowing that very few production people can get the unusually hard to get images that we shoot. To me, to you, and to anyone who works in mobile EFP, that's an important part of the mental and emotional rewards we reap for our hard work in getting the dynamic images.

Some myopic elitists who work in other higher profile motion media genres tend to look down on mobile EFP workers - but if they spent just one long day with a mobile EFP crew of planning, hiking, weathering the elements, using extreme patience, self operating the camera systems, and quickly capturing great images in natural light they'd definitely find some solid respect for how difficult the work is, and how frequently stunning the resulting images are - and that's the bottom line isn't it?
 
For the record

For the record

There is no doubt that my AIO shell concept would add some weight. For some production scenarios you might be better off stripping down to the brain and little else. That said, unless the weight differential is large, balance and ergonomics typically mean more as the day wears on. I can still remember switching from NP1s to AB bricks on my Sony DSR-130 which added roughly 4 lbs to the rig. I was dreading the extra weight but needed the longer run times. By the end of the first day I was kind of laughing at myself as the improved weight distribution actually made long shifts on the shoulder less fatiguing than with the lighter setup.

I get the fact that many hard core RedUsers are completely comfortable customizing their rigs as needed and like the ability to stay as light as the shooting situation allows. I just think its worth noting that a couple of extra lbs well distributed can actually be an improvement.

Cheers - #19
 
Unfortunately IMO it's going to be quite difficult to get the low CG and good weight distribution on the Epic body in the current form.
The camera is too tall and the connectors on the bottom prevent the cutout needed to bring down the CG for traditional shoulder mount.
Hence all the design attempts such as Gunner, Clutch that tried to patch this up...
 
No doubt Blair - in real mobile work a heavier rig, setup with good ergonomics and center of balance, ends up being much less tiring on you than a lighter rig setup with bad ergonomics and center of balance!

Of course the lighter the rig the better in mobile work, but to me a mobile EFP rig that's under 25 pounds in weight is just fine (preferably under 22 pounds). We always walk or hike into the filming area with the weight evenly distributed in a real comfortable backpacks as noted before, and our tripod systems are solid and smooth, but lightweight too.

As you know, no matter what the rig weight it definitely grows "heavier" throughout the shooting day :))
 
I hear ya Jacek...

Center of gravity, level of load, and weight distribution are critical. For mobile work with Red One and Epic I've often resorted to hanging power bricks and other accessories really low on sides and back of the rig to get the weight distribution as low as possible and balance the COG - and that effectively pulls the rig down firmly onto my shoulder. With a relatively tall, modular camera that's to be expected. When you gain something you necessarily give something up. With increased modularity comes some creative challenges in achieving the wanted weight distribution and COG. But with traditional EFP camera form factors you lose the benefits of modularity. Again, gain something and give something up.

If Red was to design a shell such as Blair suggested the designers could incorporate ergonomics and weight distribution features that created a low weight distribution and an easily achieved center of gravity.
 
This may sound weird but the Epic up side down in such a shell may just work....
 
I hear ya Denis...

When me and my crews do mobile EFP work, especially adventure travel, action sports, and wildlife, the crew size is usually no more than two people, and frequently just one person. Mobility is critical in those situations. I remember well doing the same genres in the '80's and '90's while packing 28 to 35 pound camera systems way out into remote areas! Fortunately in the past decade the average weight of the camera systems and tripods we use has diminished.

Staying physically fit is critical for mobile EFP work - always has been, and still is. Beyond that, as you know, great backpacks are a must. Over all these decades I've used backpacks from every major manufacturer: PortaBrace, Kata, Cine Bags, Tamrac, Lowepro, etc. Me and my crews now use backpacks from Clik Elite. Clik backpacks and accessories are designed by and for mobile shooters. They're way comfortable, durable, well thought out, and just look like a good backpackers pack - which helps keep equipment security risk down to a minimum when we're way out into remote areas. My favorite Clik backpack, which I've used in remote areas all over the world for production, is the Contrejour 40. I also use a Contrejour 35 for mid-sized and smaller camera kits.

Beyond backpacks I've also adopted other ways to haul equipment way out into remote areas. I drive a longbed diesel 4x4 pickup with a small camper on it, and frequently pull a high clearance trailer with a utility ATV on it. For eco-sensitive area filming I also bring along a mountain bike that pulls a small cargo trailer, on which I strap my backpack and tripod, then just pedal out into the relative location for filming, and hike the rest of the way in.

Again, I hear you and agree - a pound saved on the equipment weight is a pound less that we have to transport. Unlike cine style (narrative, etc) or studio based hardlined EFP productions, those of us who work in mobile EFP genres don't have the luxury of large crews and easy access to shooting locations. We have to work our tails off to get out to the filming locations - but that's the reason we can take satisfaction in knowing that very few production people can get the unusually hard to get images that we shoot. To me, to you, and to anyone who works in mobile EFP, that's an important part of the mental and emotional rewards we reap for our hard work in getting the dynamic images.

Some myopic elitists who work in other higher profile motion media genres tend to look down on mobile EFP workers - but if they spent just one long day with a mobile EFP crew of planning, hiking, weathering the elements, using extreme patience, self operating the camera systems, and quickly capturing great images in natural light they'd definitely find some solid respect for how difficult the work is, and how frequently stunning the resulting images are - and that's the bottom line isn't it?
I was never a camera operator in the days of the big ENG rigs of the late 1970s and early 80s but I have seen pictures of my friend Ken's rig and he was carrying that into some incredibly tough and volatile conditions like Beirut. He was able to make that work. So I get the sense that the current generation wants really light cameras but I feel properly distributed weight is a far more important factor than overall weight. No doubt the modularity comes in very handy for certain situations and if there is a way to get ergonomic with modularity that's a huge win.

I also think that staying fit as you have done all these years is indeed a requirement for camera operating, at least when going handheld.
 
By the end of the first day I was kind of laughing at myself as the improved weight distribution actually made long shifts on the shoulder less fatiguing than with the lighter setup.

No doubt Blair - in real mobile work a heavier rig, setup with good ergonomics and center of balance, ends up being much less tiring on you than a lighter rig setup with bad ergonomics and center of balance!


In my experience small cameras require more physical effort and more body muscles are used to keep them steady, whereas larger camera's mass keeps it less affected by vibration and its inertia makes its motion smoother.

Regarding Gibby's comment about ergonomics and balance, I cringe seeing the shoulder rig setup in a way the camera weight is on deltoids and biceps. Ugh. No.
 
I hear you Hrvoje, big sensors for ENG can make focusing a bitch.

Actually the comment was related to the 35mm aesthetic and cine camera picture quality used for factual, soon outdated material, the look which I see as unsuitable for this type of content and approach which I see as an overkill and needless romantization of informative content.

After a while focusing is not a big issue, depends on what is being shot, it just slows down things and more needless fiddling in edit room looking for the perfect rack focus shot, all for no apparent reason. After projects with sports and kids focused on SD monitors and viewfinders, most common slow-paced ENG on 35 mm and HD screens would be mostly an additional chore but not a big deal, with the exception of wide open and very shallow DOF, the look which for ENG to me seems ridiculous. As well as having to carry around x14 and larger zoom range equivalent.

If the landscape offered...

1) Current Epic brain (w/ side SSD)
2) Epic brain in ergonomic AIO host shell
3) Epic brain custom rigged with small modules

... it is my contention that #1 & #2 would cover 98% of use cases with minimal compromise. Moreover, if taking the Epic brain on and off the host AIO shell utilizes the rear bracket/contacts the way they appear to be designed for, you can head out on set able to switch between #1 and #2 configs in the time it took the R1 to boot up.

Cheers - #19

Yeah, something like that. I'm thinking of a solution where clicking into the shell would be within a few secs. It is doable.
 
Thanks to you all for the knowledge. I am new to Red User, but I now blame you all for being late to every appointment I've had since joining! There is a wealth of great knowledge here.

I have a generic-type question and this seems to be the group that might answer it. I am looking into the Red Dragon camera (as well as some other cameras) to be the primary on a Sports Doc that will eventually be DMR'd to IMAX. There are a lot of particulars still up in the air, but from what I've seen Dragon 6K might be the best fit. However, I am nervous about low-light situations, noise, and overall quality of the completed Film when it's time to DMR. (not to mention Post Production, etc.) Many moving parts still, but camera choice and confidence is critical.

Thoughts?
 
Hi Tim, I see that's your first Red User post - welcome! Believe me, being on here has made all of us late for appointments - but when we finally arrived at them we were much better prepared with info :))

To me the simple and short answer to your concerns is that 6k Dragon footage should be excellent for your IMAX-destined sports doc. Unless you're shooting tons of sequences at super high frame rates in very low light you should be fine. We've taken well shot, adequate natural light Red One 4k and Epic 5k footage up to IMAX before with excellent results.

I'm sure others from this thread will chime in and ease your concerns.

This thread addresses the DR/noise concerns of mobile EFP shooters, especially those who frequently need to shoot in very low light/high frame rate genres (sports, wildlife, etc.). Again, if you can get good natural light for your IMAX sports documentary I see no problem in using Dragon.
 
Back
Top