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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

EPIC, DR, HDR and stuff...

Joe Carney said:
Any info on anyone coming out with affordable 16bit display tech (card and monitor)?
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Not sure about bit depth at the panel, but Dolby Labs has some new display tech (PRM-4200) that achieves greater DR using primary color backlighting (and a few other tricks I'd wager) pushing LCD. The HP DreamColor also uses RGB light sources instead of white light to improve available gamut. Of course there are no free lunches and according to an engineer I chatted with the white light based LCDs are more faithful to Rec 709 as the RGB backlit panels are unable to create some in gamut values.

There are a number of interesting alternatives to CRT, DLP, LCD and LCoS starting with OLED that could dramatically change the color gamut and DR limitations at the display end. This makes the argument for creating more robust masters even more compelling.

4K, 16bit, 60fps, xyz (or P3) gamut anyone? :smiley:

Cheers - #19
 
I cannot see a "downside" to 16-bit though I understand you were making a specific point about present distribution formats.
 
Jannard said:
Until others actually give you enough resolution to be "future-proof", plenty of DR and at a price that everyone can afford, we will stay in business. When they provide all of the above, we just might take a vacation. Until then...
Jim
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I don't fathom the ramifications of working in 16bit depth. Can anyone point to any good sources?

I am grateful for "a price everyone can afford" as I patiently wait for Scarlet S35. It's just such a huge deal for me, I'd like to say thanks for that, Jim.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
In near future job of DP is going to get in a huge crisis

just because of affordable and easy of use digital acquisition tools.

Director will get its own way of using those new digital tools.

DSLR revolution is already showing that trend...

Also some of DPs are turning directors...

The things are always in fluxes and nothing there stay(s) still...

Exiting times are coming very soon...EPIC is a huge part of it...

1080p is gonna die pretty soon at professional world

or can still stay longer alive in schools, academies, home users,

consumers, even for a kindergarden movies made by kids, etc,...
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Some of the worst directors I know are DPs, and some of the worst DPs I know are directors - because your time is split too far and wide at some point and because each job has its own intellectual skill-set needed. Those who can do both with aplomb are rare indeed.

Despite all the hype, not many pro shoots use DSLRs and that number is shrinking, not growing, as a result of word getting out on lost shoots and problems, and not many pro shoots combine DP and director.
 
Hugh Scully said:
I don't fathom the ramifications of working in 16bit depth. Can anyone point to any good sources?
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16-bit is fairly straightforward in that you now have a range of 32,000 steps in R, G and B instead of 1,024 with 10-bit colour or 256 with 8bit. This makes much finer colour grading possible, with an image that resists degradation with heavy amounts of colour correction, even if lightly under or overexposed.

It's hard to fathom 16bit or 32float on the purely film side, because only very high end telecine systems use 16 bit to transfer filmed images. Most images come off a telecine at 10-bit and stay that way through post. Where 16 and 32 do get used almost exclusively now is on the digital and animation side. Animation is normally rendered 32 float, and the pipeline stays 32 as long as possible. 32-bit EXR is a common format for Maya or Max, or Nuke, for instance. (64-bit float exists but it's overkill).

For FX oriented movies, the biggest benefit comes where the image gets "treated" a lot as it moves through post. A 16 or 32 bit image will resist degeneration through multiple passes of compositing and colour correction until it arrives in its final form. By then, it may have been touched by 20 different sets of hands.

For regular non-FX movies, 16-bit could also allow for images that have a lot of tone, with very fine gradations between similar colours or shades of gray, also known as the HDR look. For a good colour timer, it will give him more options, as he could push a grade quite far in one direction, while still keeping a high level of detail in that given range.

Even though it will produce tangibly better images immediately, once we start to see 16-bit projectors (which is inevitable), then a 16-bit acquired format like the Epic will really shine on the screen.
 
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Chrisities top of the line 2k cinema projectors boast 15 bit per color processing, but I don't know if that is actually mapped to the displayed image or not.

Will Scarlets also benefit from the upgrade to 16 bit or will they remain 12 bit?
 
Jannard said:
Lots. Remember, after a certain point... it is much easier to light for DR than it is to manufacture resolution. I have yet to hear "I'm out of DR with my R1 M-X".

Jim
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Okay then: I'm out of DR with my R1 M-X! ;)

Honestly though, while I love the R1 with the M-X and I am getting a lot more out of it then the M sensor, don't stop pushing the DR levels of that chip and forth coming chips. I'm a DR fiend, and more DR is better- so do not stop pushing the limits. (Not that you guys ever would ...)

Thanks again for moving and pushing the industry further- I'm looking forward to seeing what the 16bit Epic can deliver. I can't wait to get my hands on my Stage 2 camera!
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
There are a number of interesting alternatives to CRT, DLP, LCD and LCoS starting with OLED that could dramatically change the color gamut and DR limitations at the display end.
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I'd say that OLED solves the display part on the equation.

Once they solve the color stability, that is.
 
Displays

Displays

I'd say that OLED solves the display part on the equation.

Once they solve the color stability, that is.
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And available panel H x V pixel resolution....
 
281.5 trillion colors...

281.5 trillion colors...

281.5 trillion colors...

fry_in_underwear_futurama.jpg

It's got more colors than the real world!

Nvidia, matrox, cuda developers please: RUN!!! RUNNN!!!!
Vico.
 
Ryan E. Walters said:
Okay then: I'm out of DR with my R1 M-X! ;)

...don't stop pushing the DR levels of that chip and forth coming chips. I'm a DR fiend, and more DR is better- so do not stop pushing the limits. (Not that you guys ever would ...)
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Ditto. Last time I checked even film cameras have difficulty holding the sky and foreground at many angles and times of day (backlit clouds are killers). We're going to keep wanting more dynamic range.

OTOH - there is a limit to human eye resolution. That's going to depend enormously on screen size and viewing distance.

Check my math - but I think this is correct:
At 12 inches, the normal visual acuity of the human eye is 0.00349 inch. What this means is that if you had alternating black and white lines that were all 0.00349 inch wide, it would appear to most people as a mass of solid gray.

That's 287 lines per inch at a viewing distance of 12 inches. 4000 lines that size would be 13.96 inches tall.

So a human can MAYBE make out 4K lines at 12 inches away from a 14" TALL monitor.

Viewing at 5 feet from a 70"h x 124"w screen would be required to resolve 4K. I'm assuming a 16:9 screen. That's a 141" TV measured diagonally. As in double the size of a 72" TV. At 5 Feet viewing.

I think EPIC's 5K for 4K has it covered until we get artificial eye implants. I'd have to do the math on an IMAX screen and viewing distances there. Then why does IMAX shoot 70mm? I'm guessing it's the optics. Remember there was some very expensive glass for the F900's because resolving 1080P on a such a small chip took high resolution glass. Which I suppose begs a question regarding what Scarlet's real world resolution will be. Might be glass limited.

You want to sell ultra high resolution? Live Magnifying. You're watching a movie and you want to click into magnify mode to view the ultra detail in the "fill in your favorite blank". Get a viewing format that has magnification built into the spec.

That actually would be very cool.

That would work right now with 1080P TVs. And it would actually make logical sense. According some reviewers online you have to sit 6 feet or closer to a 50" screen in order to even discern 1080P over 720P. That seems to match the math pretty well.

I can see many uses for ultra hi resolution... but home entertainment isn't one of them. If you're in the front row at IMAX it must be visible, I assume.

(What about 4x5 and 8x10 film cameras? Well, if you're inspecting a 20x30 print at a foot away then yes, your eyes will see the extra resolution that film can deliver provided the optics are actually capturing additional detail - which they probably are given the large negative)
 
Mohammed El Sharqawy said:
so, you'll start a vacation when you release Epics and Scarlets?
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No, Jim's post implied they will take a vacation when the rest of the industry catches up and offers the same quality for the same price. When RED's innovation and philanthropic tendencies become commonplace.

In other words, Jim and Co. won't be going on vacation any time soon. (((:
 
Joel Kaye said:
OTOH - there is a limit to human eye resolution. That's going to depend enormously on screen size and viewing distance.

Check my math - but I think this is correct:
At 12 inches, the normal visual acuity of the human eye...
Click to expand...

Uh oh... Here we go again! ;)
 
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