Epic Disappointment

[Daniel Soderberg]

Exactly... Eventually I plan on selling my Epic to put the money towards the next generation Red... EVERY SINGLE TIME anyone buys a camera, they have to have that in mind...

I would guess that millions of people do. Many people plan purchases on major release dates and then sell that equipment before the next major release. Lots of Apple users do it for example. If I didn't resell my equipment keeping resale value in mind... I would have never been able to afford a RED camera and many other things.

In 2003 I bought a Canon XL1-S
In 2005 I sold it towards purchasing a Sony FX1
In 2007 I sold the FX1 towards purchasing a HVX200
In 2008 I sold both of my HVX200's and all of my Zacuto/REDrock Micro gear towards purchasing a RED One.
In 2011 I sold a RED One MX towards purchasing my EPICs.

Without this form of leap frogging, I wouldn't have accrued the finances to be where I'm at now. I work and manage the equipment that I own... towards the goal of progressing my life. Making careful informed purchasing decisions along the way. These tools are my working investments. I don't make so much money from these tools that I can let them depreciate down to nothing and have money in my bank account to buy the next latest and greatest. I thought RED was mindful of that concept.

You guys must be rich to not think about resale value. I guess I should be "talented" and still be out there shooting on Canon XL-1. RED broke that cycle by announcing a 45% price reduction without the next latest and greatest... Woohah!!! I never saw that one coming. Talk about Crazy!!!! Is there a fire sale going on?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Exactly... Eventually I plan on selling my Epic to put the money towards the next generation Red... EVERY SINGLE TIME anyone buys a camera, they have to have that in mind...

I guess most people think the EPIC brain will be around forever. Even the brain will have an upgrade sooner or later. Without the upgrade being subsidized by RED... that will be a huge hit for most folks. This modularity concept is not so grand when you think of it. Like the C500 and the F55 have 4k monitoring... the RED EPIC doesn't... sure RED could build a module for that... but now you have a much larger brain with a module for such an essential feature.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

EPIC is not at it's end, it's coming full circle.

EPIC brain was released at $27K.

Due to natural disasters, manufacturing issues, supply chain difficulties, etc... RED had to raise the price of the EPIC to $34.5K. They did not want to do this. People bitched and moaned and complained and, hey, wait, I'm experiencing deja vu... Anyway, RED did not set their prices artificially high to account for market volatility, their transparency was apparent, even though this didn't set well with a lot of people.

Now they're doing the same thing, but correcting the other way. Prices are cut for the EPIC brain to $19K.

Dragon is about to release, it's a bit behind schedule, but also it seems like it's going to be even better. It's a $6K upgrade. Presumably, new EPIC brains with the Dragon upgrade already installed will be $25K here in the next couple months. That's the price for anyone who buys an EPIC right now to get to Dragon. Many of the people who bought into EPIC at the $34.5K brain price get the Dragon upgrade *FOR FREE* if they played their cards right and made their purchases at $50K total or more. Something that's pretty darn easy to do if you're buying accessories and media so you can use that camera brain.


Another point. Who buys pieces of advanced technology with resale value in mind? Based on most of the comments here on these forums, I wonder how many of the unhappy people can look in the mirror at themselves after buying a computer. You know, because that's exactly what these cameras are. And not just RED cameras, any digital camera system -- they're computers with imaging sensors pasted to the front of them. Like all other technology, they're going to get smaller, faster, cheaper, etc.. In the not too distant future, we'll have cameras that are no bigger than a rear PL cap and will have 100X the capabilities of an EPIC. They'll probably cost less than $200 too...


How many times did Sony slash the price on the F35? 3? 4? What is it worth now? They released the F65 for 20% less than the last official price of the F35, at which the F35 was selling for at the time and continued to sell for after the F65 introduction... F35's were selling for $220K less than 3 years ago. If you want to sell one today, you'll be lucky to get more than $10k for it and you'll probably have to take your buyer out to dinner and find other ways to fluff them a bit.


Look what happened to industries like 3D modeling and animation software. A few new players come in and shake things up and some changes start slowly at first, but we see rapid progression and development within the industry. And we also see drastic price reductions and increased diversity and adoption of the products across a much larger user base. In 1990, applications like Alias PowerAnimator and SoftImage|3D would cost upwards of $120K per seat after the software license and a competent workstation (mostly SGI at the time) to run it on. That didn't even include all the render node licenses either. By the end of that decade, 3D Studio MAX was the most popular 3D software and sold for under $3500 per seat. PowerAnimator evolved into Maya, eventually acquired by AutoDesk, just as 3DS Max and others were.

Same thing is happening in the camera world. Materials costs on the cameras is fairly low in relation to their actual price. It's a matter of manufacturing efficiency, supply chain, etc.. They're going to become more plentiful, cheaper, faster, better, etc.. So, do you want to keep buying from one of the companies that uphold artificial pricing that looks more exorbitant with every new product entering the market? Or would you prefer to do business with a company that is going to price their stuff fairly and in accordance with what they can actually be manufactured and delivered for?


In the end, who's going to buy a $75K camera from one company that eventually gets obsoleted in favor of a new model that will be priced similarly, when they can buy from a company that evolves their products 2~3X as fast at a lower price point while offering a means to upgrade to their current tech?


Anyway, everyone's entitled to feel how they want about this. It seem some people have built a business model around perceived value of their cameras. That might work for some, but seems like flawed reasoning to me. I enjoy being first in my market with the new camera toys and I have capitalized on that here and there. But in the end, people hire me for me. Not because I'm a member of the hot-shit camera of the month club. My EPICs have paid for themselves several times over. I could care less if they cost $50 or $50,000. I still make the same product with them and that generates more revenue than trying to market my camera as a valuable tool ever will.

hey just one question...why didnt they decrease accessories price? especially media and shitty red touchscreens have you ever checked whats inside of 128GB SSD? let me tell you ,just 200$ Toshiba SSD bet they are paying less than 100$ to these toshiba drives when they buy it on high quantities.
got banned on this media discussion before please dont ban me again...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Funny - I have a different approach when I "invest" in technology. I tend to wait as long as possible to wring the most out of what I have. Then, when it gets painful, because it really isn't performing anymore, I buy the new tech right as it comes out - usually the "second level" model, because the very highest performing machines command and extra premium. The old one is usually pretty useless by then.

I waited 5 years to move my Mac Pro G5 to a 2010 MacPro - partially because it wouldn't even run the newest OS. Five years is unusual but I don't feel pressed to get a new Mac Pro until maybe the new 2013 TB models or maybe even the rev after that.

Same with cameras. I wring what I can until the just aren't viable.

It's just another way of looking at it. I have never done a thorough analysis of the financial ramifications of one vs. the other.

 

[Curt Pair]

"Up to this point, I had been so excited about every new opportunity you've given us with all of your products and options in gear and upgrades, but this change was a huge disappointment in so many ways for us current Red owners..."

Daniel,

Let's face it... we are the minority! I agree with you and Andrae. I'm not happy. I feel cheated... I know that a lot of folks here keep telling me what I'm feeling is wrong, but they aren't walking in my shoes... that's ok. I don't expect them to understand... It's not their life and they don't care. Unfortunately, many of these people aren't willing to see the other side.

I'm supposed to just "accept it and move on..." Oh, I'd love too... just as soon a Mr. Jannard calls my bank and pays the difference in my loan or has my principal lowered... after all, he cut me off at the knees! How can I move on when I will have a monthly reminder for the next several years? That's a tough one! I certainly don't think the last five months have been considered "early adopter..." I have even done what others suggested and WAITED to jump in and go full bore Red, and buy the Epic.

When I bought mine in January, I was told by several sales folks, that the ONLY way to get into the upgrade path was to purchase the more expensive M model. One Rep told me "yes, it's $10K more, but you'll be into the trade in program for life that way... once you're in, you're in!" So... I decided to throw down the extra dough JUST TO GET into the trade in program! (I'm the first to purchase outside of Red directly, going through Band Pro... but I did speak to Red Reps directly... I would have purchased directly, but the bank wanted me to receive the goods first and then release funds, Red had to have funds before shipping... it was a crazy dilemma!) So I drop $60K just on the basic Epic kit to be in the family and trade in program... Never mind that it took five months to acquire all of my necessary accessories to shoot with it. So in all honesty and fairness, I'm five months into a several year financial commitment, and I've just had my legs knocked out from underneath me! You know what it stings! Check that... it hurts! So when folks say something like "hey it's been a few days get over it..." You know what? I'm on the OTHER side... I'm not enjoying the other side of reading posts on how wonderful this is!

I agree... I understand that over time, every camera will lose it's value. Generally, it is a percentage and is on a curve... This is unexpected. I bought a Sony XDCam HD F800 camera for $42K and over three years it dropped to $27K... but that's over three years, not five months! Ironically, with the natural disasters and such in Japan over the last year, the price continued to drop, and NOT climb! That goes against some schools of thought here too...

I'm already feeling the repercussions of this reduction too. I've had several clients tell me "Oh, see, Red has admitted their camera isn't as good as the others anymore... if we continue to use it, we should get a discount for using an inferior piece of equipment..." Andrae is correct. There is a perception out there... whether or not it's factual or not is insignificant. People make their perception their own reality. Customers are always wanting things cheaper and cheaper... (have you ever read the Red forums? Some people want Epics for $5 and think they should get it!) I explained this in another post and was told to "tell off" that client. What?!?!?! The customer is always right... at least I try to practice that. Let's not forget... yes, we're artists and technicians, but we're also in the customer service business. They have a choice in where they spend their money too. I try to give an honest days work for an honest days pay. I'm not a price gouger. In fact, I'd say I'm lower than most of my competitors in terms of price and higher in value for customer service and my final product.

In a down turned global economy, sometimes securing work is harder than others. I've been doing this long enough to know it's ALWAYS a roller coaster, sometimes your up, sometimes your down... But right now we're kind of down and then getting (I'll borrow your phrase Daniel, because I believe it's accurate) kicked in the gut really takes your breath away. I also realize work opportunities are related to geographic location too. I live in the 4th largest city in the US... but work in our state is down considerably. I have a friend who is a grip... typical years he's working 250+ days per year... Our tax incentives ended in January... This poor guy hasn't worked AT ALL since March, and I'd say he's one of the best in the business! He lost his house, his van, his gear... When I heard that I did think "wow, I thought I had it bad, but I guess I didn't realize..." sure someone is always going to be worse off... but I understood why I'm having a down turn... the entire state is hurting for production work.

I am holding on to hope that the 4K movement comes sooner than later, and that I'll be ahead of the curve. I'll be ready to shoot at that resolution immediately. Hopefully more work will come my way. I've been so excited about using Epic, my customers joke about how enthusiastic I am when talking about it. I love the images. I love the workflow. (I'd read how hard it was, but being a long time Premiere user, it is a breeze! No transcoding... Editing native 5K on my HP workstation AND my laptop? It's just been awesome!) The clients who've allowed us to showcase the Epic love the product. I've felt I've been a terrific ambassador to Red and the cause. I just don't feel Red has the same attitude towards great customers like me.


(I did read something interesting that someone posted in this thread... If we spent more than $50K on our Epic, we get a free upgrade to Dragon? I hadn't heard or read that... if that is true, perhaps the sting is a bit less... but I haven't been informed of that at this point...

 

[Nick Gardner]

I don't feel like I lost anything with the price cut. I love my cameras and think they were a great value.

However, as of right now, Reds reputation has taken a big hit. To pretend it doesn't mater or exist is neither realistic or helpful. We'll see how it shapes up the next month, but right now Red is the kid showing up for school in the off brand jeans from Scratch and Dent. I sure hope the new releases on Epic like Flight and the Hobbit (please don't suck, please) help to reframe that perception.

I am on a movie right now shooting Alexa. Shooting Alexa for a theatrical release film when Epic is available is like sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that the world is flat, but it is happening all over the place.

Nick

 

[Andy White]

The same people in this thread that are voices (pro or con) in the subject, including myself LOL

However, there are two things here.

The price slash on Epic was out of the blue. A lot of people got caught out by this & paid the price (literally), especially those in stage 4 (who either paid $31K pre Jan 01st or $34K up to Nab 2012)... and the downgrading of the price (let's call it 'repositioning') and how it's going to affect Brand RED. What surprises me most is the attitude that keeps coming up that anyone caught out in the price hike is either bad at business or should have seen it coming (etc etc). This is getting really tired now guys.

Nobody saw this coming. All this discussion about technology or cars depreciating (ad nauseum) is missing a clear and simple fact... we are all at the mercy (probably not the best word to use) of Jim & RED. It's their game and his rules. Jim slashed the price - it's his baby and his company. Whatever else is said about technology/deprecation etc would not have been said if Jim hadn't changed the prices. Can Jim do what he wants? Absolutely. Did RED make waves in the industry, shake it up and create fear in the big boys? Hell yeah (as you guys say over the pond!).

So... what I am saying is that, if Jim had not changed the price, all the combined 'I told you so' and 'this is the game we're in... suck it up' 'you should have seen this coming' etc comments would simply not be holding true. It's been Jim's call to do this - for reasons he stated and maybe many other reasons we're not aware of. Do I agree? Nope. As I said in previous posts. Am I sticking with RED, Yes, I like my Epic and the business model & ROI on my side isn't based on rental. Have I lost out at the moment, yes. Will I loose long term, probably not... and I am hopeful that the Dragon will be the 'new Epic'... ie the must have body

Imagine, if you will, that Jim posts again - and in that post he says Epic bodies are going up to $50K in January, as components have changed costs and there is a skilled workforce shortage... what would everyone say then? Would all agree? It's an interesting hypothesis - give it a little thought. I'm obviously not saying this will happen... but it's as left field as Jim's previous announcement

Simply, we don't know what is around the corner - what market forces are driving and how the RED cookie will crumble over time.

But can we please (please) stop saying that this was on the cards and was inevitable It it was, where are the threads and posts from those who knew it was on the horizon back in June/July, saying 'guys - hold off on your purchase - there's a reduction coming'? Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I cannot remember any posts contemplating a 50% reduction in Epic bodies or an incoming change in many people's business practices. Everyone was happy with Scarlet (and pushing RED for more features) and overjoyed when they got Epics and looking forward to Dragon info.

Is this new place we find ourselves good or bad? Well, for many, that's a deeply personal position This isn't a post pointed at anyone... it's just I am trying to put a reasonable set of points and stop the cyclic discussions. I'll fail - I know... but thought it was worth a try! Wow - sorry this turned into a long post... it was meant to be a short one!

What's done is done. Jim is Jim. RED is RED. That's the way it works here - it's a Jimtocracy - well maybe a JimJantorcacy or even a JimJarJantocracy! LOL.

 

[Mark Pavy]

Just curious if you guys did take the asset value loss and sell your Epics, what would you buy? The point being, you only lose if you sell. The Epic's going to be good for many years to come with the Dragon upgrade and who knows what the future holds. I just can't see too many people wanting to sell their Epic's for the foreseeable future.

Also, how would you react if a rival company released a higher spec'd camera than the Epic for $15k, how much would your Epic be worth then.

 

[Andy White]

(I did read something interesting that someone posted in this thread... If we spent more than $50K on our Epic, we get a free upgrade to Dragon? I hadn't heard or read that... if that is true, perhaps the sting is a bit less... but I haven't been informed of that at this point...

Curt - I think the free Dragon upgrade was started at NAB 2012 and ran through until the recent price drop.

Before that, it's the $6K upgrade price... but M owners are first in line for Dragon.

 

[john jeffreys]

So sick of these threads.

 

[Roger mahler]

Hey guys,

I can see everyone is either elated by the dropped prices or horrified but it's like what some other people have said and that is electronics go down in value over time. It's also basic economics here, market segmentation. A company has a product and two prices for it, one for those who want it right now at a high price and those who wait for sales. The key word is they have to wait for it.

In short if you wanted a red1 in 2007 you had to get it new and pay 17.5 to 25k for it. It cost some serious money but you got it 6 years ago. If you wanted it for 12k then you had to get used and wait until 2011 or so. If you wanted for 4k, then you had to wait till last week, 2012, 5 years later. Its used and it still will take weeks just to get it. So you get cheap but you are waiting for it all along the way.

In short you either pay by waiting or by paying.

Sony doesn't do this but it doesn't even matter. look at the cost of a brand new f900 at bhphoto.com. It's still 80k, but no one is getting it. you can get it used for 10k or less on eBay, because that is it's real value now roughly speaking, or even less since most of those cameras aren't even clearing at that price.

The epic is a couple years old, so of course it's value has to go down over the years. I bought a dvx100 for 3k in 2004. In 2003 it was worth 4k. Now it's worth about 500. I bought an ex1r brand new in 2010 for 6.3k. I put 39 hours on it and sold it 8 months later for only 5.3k. I lost 20% in one year. That means you lose most of its value in about 5 years or so.

I bought a gh2 for 1000, now it's worth 700 after only 1 year, that's 33% of its value.

Electronics go down in value pretty fast, just like cars and really anything. If you don't like that then you rent it or use it and sell it off right away to avoid these depreciation issues. I realized that with the ex1r and I sold it off fast. Now it's worth about 3-4k but I dumped it before that happened.

You can't complain about this. This is reality. You either pay, rent or wait and they all have advantages and disadvantages.

Buti think the key here is like what they're saying here and that is if you put all this money down for a professional camera syste, you need to make sure it's performing for you and making money since it has to balance out depreciation loses over the years. These are tools not baseball cards.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Do you(anyone) think in the future amazing cameras will be $10k, or $5k? I do. Might not be as far off as we think. Look what happened in the last five years, and really think about it. We are just going to have to get used to the idea that this stuff is all getting WAY more affordable quickly. If these price wars continue, and they will, reputation and talent will be the only reasons for clients to hire you. It stings because it is just starting....but we will always adjust, and the people with talent and a great attitude will be fine. Just my opinion.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

"These are tools not baseball cards."

Nailed it.

 

[Brian Merlen]

dude i must of read like f*cking 20 of the same thread now...seriously just get your dragon and all of your resale and rental value will be back FOR 6 GRAND!!! clearly with the Dragon being due out SOON, they are liquidating all the MX sensors to get us the newer sensor. I don't see how this is a problem, you will have a BRAND NEW camera for only 6 grand.

Unlike with sony where you got a EX1 to an EX3 to a F3 to a F23 to a F65 to a....

you get the point? so can we please consolidate all these threads into one or something? its like every damn thread on this site is about how Epic owners are getting screwed...mean while us Scarlet guys don't have a 6 grand upgrade coming to us, because we need some new boards too and are awaiting more info. I would love to be in your shoes right now, knowing that for 6 grand I am about to have one of the hottest cameras out there in only a few months! instead i am stuck here watching people complain about WHAT IS PROBABLY THE BEST CAMERA COMPANY EVER BEING THAT THEY HAVE A FULL VALUE TRADE IN POLICY...

so when Dragon comes out and your cameras all appreciate 20k or so more...probably back to where it was... if not higher...you will be on top AGAIN...


so before my cancer relapses from reading 50000000 million threads about the SAME thing... can the mods please combine them or stop letting this happen...some of us still come here to talk about productive things...

AND NOT THROW A TEMPER TANTRUM THAT FOR A COUPLE MONTHS EPIC IS WORTH LESS UNTIL ITS UPGRADED,,,. because if you all stopped to analytically think for ONE MINUTE, clearly you will see this is an MX liquidation right before Dragon comes out, NOTHING MORE, NO CONSPIRACY AND YOU CAN TAKE OFF THE TIN FOIL HATS

so please, go get a drink, take a hit, call a hooker, do what you need to do to rewindulax for a little until you get your FULL VALUE TRADE UP... because i cant find a business in the world that does that other then this one, and I don't want you guys to f*ck this up for me by ending what is probably the best policy any company EVER HAD...


THANK YOU, a very sick of reading toxic negativity Scarlet owner...

(who bought in a couple months before the price drop and isn't getting his panties in a bunch over it)

 

[Jeff Whitehurst]

Despite the ranting tone of the last post, I have to admit Brian is on to something I'm just not seeing much in these "kicked in the nuts" threads. The answer to your Epic devaluation woes is the Dragon. 6K and you guys are on top again. How far would 6K get you if you were paying off one of those 6 figure 1080 RGB doorstops right now? I think it's time to take a deep breath and know the RED team knows what they're doing and has your back. It's a temporary devaluation, if you were short-sighted enough to sell right now. If you don't sell and pony up the 6K for the Dragon, not only do you have the best priced most capable camera in existence, you have it way before anybody else. Everybody knows that's money in the bank. In other words, why not keep your Epic, upgrade it and sell/rent it for a handsome profit to somebody who can't wait their turn?
Scarlet owners have gotten a lot of flack for being cheapskate wannabes or whatever, often from the same voices being heard right now in these endless "disappointed" threads, so I'll also add that when I bought my Scarlet Nov. 3rd, I said to myself that there's no way the Epic is going to be the top dog at RED in a year, and it's going to cost ~20K. I feel bad for somebody that didn't see this coming and bought an Epic a few months ago, but also wondering some things: Why did you not see the obvious signs (Scarlet release, Dragon announcement, Tsunami related temporary price hike, Jim's posts, etc) and what do you have to gain by coming on RU and bitterly complaining about it? Does anybody expect Jim to whip out the checkbook and start paying you back the difference? Doesn't your complaining hurt the brand more than a clearance sale? Doesn't this damage reflect on future rentals and sale value of your gear?

Confucius say: He who is falling looks down, not up ;-)

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

dude i must of read like fucking 20 of the same thread now...seriously just get your dragon and all of your resale and rental value will be back FOR 6 GRAND!!! clearly with the Dragon being due out SOON, they are liquidating all the MX sensors to get us the newer sensor. I don't see how this is a problem, you will have a BRAND NEW camera for only 6 grand.

Unlike with sony where you got a EX1 to an EX3 to a F3 to a F23 to a F65 to a....

you get the point? so can we please consolidate all these threads into one or something? its like every damn thread on this site is about how Epic owners are getting screwed...mean while us Scarlet guys don't have a 6 grand upgrade coming to us, because we need some new boards too and are awaiting more info. I would love to be in your shoes right now, knowing that for 6 grand I am about to have one of the hottest cameras out there in only a few months! instead i am stuck here watching people complain about WHAT IS PROBABLY THE BEST CAMERA COMPANY EVER BEING THAT THEY HAVE A FULL VALUE TRADE IN POLICY...

so when Dragon comes out and your cameras all appreciate 20k or so more...probably back to where it was... if not higher...you will be on top AGAIN...


so before my cancer relapses from reading 50000000 million threads about the SAME thing... can the mods please combine them or stop letting this happen...some of us still come here to talk about productive things...

AND NOT THROW A TEMPER TANTRUM THAT FOR A COUPLE MONTHS EPIC IS WORTH LESS UNTIL ITS UPGRADED,,,. because if you all stopped to analytically think for ONE MINUTE, clearly you will see this is an MX liquidation right before Dragon comes out, NOTHING MORE, NO CONSPIRACY AND YOU CAN TAKE OFF THE TIN FOIL HATS

so please, go get a drink, take a hit, call a hooker, do what you need to do to rewindulax for a little until you get your FULL VALUE TRADE UP... because i cant find a business in the world that does that other then this one, and I don't want you guys to fuck this up for me by ending what is probably the best policy any company EVER HAD...


THANK YOU, a very sick of reading toxic negativity Scarlet owner...

(who bought in a couple months before the price drop and isn't getting his panties in a bunch over it)

You're a Scarlet owner, so you're not in the same situation...

The only one seemingly throwing a 'temper tantrum' and writing in all caps in this thread is you.

Paying 6k for a new sensor reverses the investment loss how exactly?

You describe Red's sale of the Red One MX as liquidation... I think that one actually supports our argument... Now there will be many more prosumer level people with Red's saturating the business. Again, this is great for new cheap customers, but hurts current, loyal customers of Red.

I apologize if my thread sounds similar to others, but I felt my arguments were better organized and in a way that was not supposed to sound like an attack on Red, but just an argument against their recent decision. Your's sounds like an immature rant. Unlike people with Scarlet's (you), us Epic owners are/and will be affected by the price change...

I appreciate those who tried creating a rational response to mine, because I find it helpful to see other views on the price changes.

 

[Brian Merlen]

look i dont mean to come off particularly hard on you specifically, its not you...its the fact that "I apologize if my thread sounds similar to others"... everyone is flipping out like the world is ending and forgetting the dragon is about to come out...

I don't see how a very short lived devaluation is a problem, liquidating old technology so that people can have better stuff (dragon). every single company on the planet does this, how is this not coming across to people...

the only way to lose right now is to sell out at the bottom and not upgrade your sensor. mean while new dragon owners are going to pay a ton, and some of you guys have went from m to mx to epic to now dragon, that is probably the most fair camera deal of all time.

which is why its so mind boggling to complain about a deal that is super sweet! hell i'll spot people the 6k on the upgrade and split the money if they can't afford it, that 6k is probably really gonna be worth 20-30k in resale value alone

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

liquidating old technology so that people can have better stuff (dragon). every single company on the planet does this, how is this not coming across to people...

IF this is indeed what RED is doing, the implication would be that one fine day, EPICs will start shipping with DRAGON inside for 26K. Upgrades on existing EPICs can then take a long time. I can't imagine RED will delay shipment of Dragon-installed EPICs until all current EPIC owners who want a DRAGON update, get one.

So, people who bought EPICs for stage 4 prices (+ 6K for an upgrade) will NOT have Dragon for the long time it'll take to upgrade all existing EPICs (chip + ASICs), while those who shell out 26K will get a Dragon equipped EPIC within days.

IF what you say is correct, does this seem plausible to you? If it is, does it sound fair to you?

 

[Curt Pair]

Curt - I think the free Dragon upgrade was started at NAB 2012 and ran through until the recent price drop.

Before that, it's the $6K upgrade price... but M owners are first in line for Dragon.

Andy,

Hey cool! Thanks for the info! Much obliged... Got me excited for a moment! At least I'm in the front section of the line!

 

[Brian Merlen]

i think red has been upgrading their manufacturing capabilities, because the lag times have been improving and will be able to handle the situation better then previously. and i think people knew that serial numbers would be the way the system works and knew going into it where they might fall in the proverbial update cycle based on when they bought in (or if they went for the Epic M). i mean by that logic as the baby brother model, i knew that it'd take me even longer. so i bought a used one with as low a serial as i could find. i also think stressing to be the first on the block is silly (though i admit it cant hurt), especially when no consumers in our country own 4k tvs yet. the red one might be EOL but its not out of date. believe me i would have loved to have got it BT at these prices over a scarlet. i am comfortable not keeping up with the the rental houses..


all will work out guys, but in the mean time can we just consolidate this topic to one thread...they are spreading like wildfire!