Epic and thievery...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Exactly how do you propose to make a security layer such as this, that can be user-activated, and yet not easily hacked or bypassed? That's what I'm getting at.

And assuming you do succeed at that, and no one ever has, not in the auto industry, heavy equipment industry, computer industry, etc.. But assuming you do succeed, exactly how does this act as a theft deterrent? When thieves rip a trailer open and grab all the equipment cases and run, what does this do?

To me it seems like a "padlock" solution. Only good enough to keep opportunistic, impulsive thieves within our midst from running off with the camera, when they are aware of the protection and don't feel confident or ambitious enough to try breaking it. If a thief knows enough about the equipment to skip over a "locked" camera, then they won't be grabbing the camera anyway. They'll be grabbing the lens case, computers and lights.

 

[Michael Stanmore]

Yeah... I've read these 5 pages... but I don't really see anything here that would deter the sort of bloke who stole my Red... he had gone to the effort of forging a driver's license etc... so... was quite organised and would just hack any software key based system or whatever else.


About the "losing your place in line" question, Red discuss that side of things on an individual basis with the unfortunates who have had Red cameras stolen. I can't talk about that more except that they have said publicly that they're sympathetic.


about a Public list of stolen cameras... I'm all for that... why would I have any privacy concern that my Red number is on a list of stolen cameras....it IS stolen. I'm not embarrassed by it. It doesn't make me feel like less of a man... people get crap stolen from them every day all over the world...

So if a list publicly on the forum helps in any small way... Whatever...go for it.


About the noble institution of the Police... give me a freakin' break. Their only function in life is to provide a crime number to the insurance company.

Maybe if the thief parked in a handicap spot... they'd get a ticket... that's about all the retribution I envisage.

As for GPS? I dunno... on the surface I like the idea... but lets face it... they'll probs just find a way to turn it off.

We can't do anything about the thieves folks. As the newest "victim" I'd love to take to my thief with a baseball bat. But that'd just make me a killer...

So whatever... I'll bitch an moan for a bit... then pick up the insurance and move on with my life.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Out of about 7000 cameras sold, how many have actually been stolen? Reported here on the forums is definitely less than 10 that I can think of without actually searching. Even if it were something like 100 cameras, that is still only 1.4%. If we want to play the statistics game, I have a better chance of getting run over in a crosswalk than getting my RED stolen. Car thieves can hot-wire and steal a brand new Toyota Prius with its fancy computerized ignition system, LoJack w/GPS and Bluetooth key. How is a camera going to be any better protected?

All I know is that every time a theft is reported, the whole community goes completely apeshit over it, as if it were a kidnapped child. Shit happens, theft happens. I know of more RED's seriously damaged/destroyed while being used than being stolen.

Michael, sorry for your bad luck, but you have the right idea. Just suck it up, collect the insurance and move on.

 

[Andrew clemson]

surely a quick email or telephone call to the Bomb squad with a serial number that is in question (if you are offered a camera for sale, for example) isnt too hard?

 

[Peter Majtan]

Jeff, unlike computers where You have "easy" access to the SW (OS) and HW and You can attack any protection with clever programming - the RED ONE does not have this "easy" form of access. The only way to hack the RED ONE would be to create Your own firmware and then install it on the camera (which You will not be able to do if the "key" is activated)...

In the end - and please correct me if I am wrong - I think all of the stolen RED cameras were stolen on purpose. By that I mean it was not the type of theft You are describing ("When thieves rip a trailer open and grab all the equipment cases and run"), but rather a calculated theft specifically targeting the RED ONE, such as fraudulent rental, etc... This kind of security will definitely deter such a theft, as the people who steel these cameras are for sure here on these forums. If they knew that stolen camera will be useless to them, they may focus on something else...

Anyway - this is just an open discussion...
And Michael - I believe this system would have prevented Your theft...

In the end I know that RED is working 30-hrs days (and sometimes nights too) to get these cameras out and I doubt they think it is worth the effort...

So what to do next?

We shoul do something about this. And by "WE" I mean 3rd party developers. We are working on rather revolutionary SW for RED post and I will try to make sure we include some sort of feature that will detect footage from "stolen" RED cameras (shot after the date when the camera was reported stolen, as to retain access to footage shot prior the theft). It will simply embed a watermark onto the footage along the line:

"This footage needs to be authorized. Please contact RED"

And of course - it will "phone home". If RED will not make any "official" database of stolen cameras - we will make our own and I will encourage all owners who had their camera stolen to report this to us. We will of course verify this with RED to prevent any "prank" calls/emails. This is just an idea and I will work on it a lot more...

I have not (yet) had my RED camera stolen, but it is easy to have the attitude of "it did not happen to me - I don't care - get over it". With Epic and Scarlet cameras about to hit the market (especially the Scarlet) - You can expect a lot more REDs being stolen in the years to come...

I will try to do my part as a 3rd party developer - I can only hope other will do theirs...

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, unlike computers where You have "easy" access to the SW (OS) and HW and You can attack any protection with clever programming - the RED ONE does not have this "easy" form of access. The only way to hack the RED ONE would be to create Your own firmware and then install it on the camera (which You will not be able to do if the "key" is activated)...

On this, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can't really discuss it, especially not in a public forum, but you would probably be shocked at some of the hacking jobs I've seen and what tools and equipment were involved. It is true that such protection via software on PCs is very easy to thwart. But there's always a way. Never underestimate the hacker who's willing to go direct to the hardware and start swapping chips. Yes, even if it means doing micro-soldering by hand. And I'm not saying that would even be the only way.

In the end - and please correct me if I am wrong - I think all of the stolen RED cameras were stolen on purpose.

No way to know for sure. When all the production gear is stolen out of the back seat of a car, including a RED One that happened to be there, you can't say for sure. In all my theft experiences over the years, I will say that more than half were perpetrated by people already familiar with the items and locations.

And a theft perpetrated at arms-length by those familiar with the protection, may not be thwarted as easily as you hope. What is to keep them from simply assuming or gambling that they can acquire the proper key at a later date, if they had not already successfully done this before taking the camera?

We shoul do something about this. And by "WE" I mean 3rd party developers. We are working on rather revolutionary SW for RED post and I will try to make sure we include some sort of feature that will detect footage from "stolen" RED cameras (shot after the date when the camera was reported stolen, as to retain access to footage shot prior the theft). It will simply embed a watermark onto the footage along the line:

That feature for software tools has been discussed at length before. That would be great for letting people know they own a stolen camera, that they had purchased unknowingly. Although, that shouldn't happen in the first place, since ownership transfer has to take place through RED. So the other scenario would mean the person is knowingly using a stolen camera. How would this feature do anything to them? Even if all R3D post software had it, as if it were an embedded function of the RED SDK, what is to keep a noob hacker from tampering with the software on their end, or simply changing the camera ID info in the R3D files?

Sorry if I come across like a curmudgeonly cynical asshole. I've just seen too much of this sort of thing.

I have not (yet) had my RED camera stolen, but it is easy to have the attitude of "it did not happen to me - I don't care - get over it". With Epic and Scarlet cameras about to hit the market (especially the Scarlet) - You can expect a lot more REDs being stolen in the years to come...

Don't get me wrong, I don't have that attitude. And I agree with you here. Scarlet is going to be a hot item for thieves. Just as the Canon 5D2 and 7D are now.

I will try to do my part as a 3rd party developer - I can only hope other will do theirs...

I agree with this too. An accessible database to reference for stolen cameras would be a good tool. Especially if third-party software can make use of it. This would make it very difficult or impossible for stolen cameras to actually work on a real production. At least in this country. Then again, if it's a stolen camera, and there's a theft-guard system in place to deal with, why not alter the camera iD/PIN while they're at it?

 

[Peter Hoare]

I remember hearing a story from an experienced camera operator a while ago. He said during a shoot, their truck was broken into and several cases containing a panavision camera and lenses were taken. Obviously, a big problem. A few days later, the cameras and lenses were found dumped in a ditch, and the theives had made off with the cases.

I think the average thief that would nick something like this would have no idea how to use it, and if it was stolen packed down (no lens) they would probably have no idea what it even was.

Its not like you can walk into a bar and sell something like that to the first person you walk up to.


Maybe there should be an unofficial rule, if you are offered a cheap RED under suspicious circumstances, just buy it back there and then and worry about the rest later. At least it would get it into safe hands....

 

[Ed Watkins]

The watermark on footage from stolen cameras is a very good idea.

It is not an immediate deterrent to those stealing cameras, and it won't lock you out (potentially accidentally) like some of the other suggestions. But, once people know that a stolen RED is worthless (because you can't use it in any productions) the black market for them will die off.

Of course the only issue is that the post software must update itself to register the stolen serials, and who says a dodgy post house won't just simply stick with the old software, or block the 'phone home' update url?

Still an idea I think is worth exploring further.

 

[Stefan Christou]

AS I've said I'd like some kind of GSM/GPS/Lojack system for tracing the camera. But since there's a strong chance some of us will be "behind enemy lines" in EFP/ENG situations I'd rather not have some third party generic hellfire missile come though my window based on Epic/Scarlet's location. This might be important for those using this in the US military too.

Not to mention TMZ.com hacking into the signal and following celeb photographers everywhere.

Perhaps if there is a tracking option it can be in a module that's made to be not easy to remove.

Just a thought.