Epic and doc shooting

[Michael Olsen]

David,

Makes perfect sense, I just didn't know if I was missing something - all sorts of situations require different solutions.

Audio only would be a neat way to make life easy, though.

Also, since REDCODE is a VBR, what happens if you set ISO for absolute lowest noise and just leave the lens cap on? What do the file sizes look life if the sensor is recording as little information as possible?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The ideal would be a RED station (battery) version that could offload from the 1.8" REDmags to commodity 2.5s so you could get by with a couple of REDmags and offload to the 2.5s when necessary.

You do realize, that even with the fastest 2.5" HDD available today, it would take about 90 minutes to unload a 256GB RED SSD. The SSD's themselves are super fast -- they can read out at 250MB/s or more. That means a 256GB REDMAG will unload in 18 minutes (or less if it's not completely full), provided you have the bandwidth on the receiving end. A 1TB 2.5" HDD will hold 4 of those SSD's worth of data. However, it can only average about 60MB/s or so across the entire drive capacity for write speed.

Another thing to consider for offloading your media. Whatever you offload to, is a temporary storage container. A backup is always fine and dandy, but no 2.5" HDD is going to be as robust as the camera SSD magazines. Even if I have the luxury on a doc or nature shoot to be able to create backups in the field, there is no way I'm going to willingly format and recycle camera media unless I can have redundant backups and have a proper way to accurately scrutinize all the footage after the copy. Even then, I won't simply recycle, I'll pick and pluck the most expendable media first -- as in the media containing the least valuable shots.

I totally understand wanting to "bomb proof" the production as Meryem puts it, but we also have to be practical here. How many of us are doing backups in the field of CF media we run through our SLRs? How many of us offload and back-up SxS and P2 in the field when we don't have to? What did you all do when shooting to DV, DVCPROHD and/or HDCAM tape? Did you guys lug a deck around in a backpack or in the back of a jeep to make duplicate copies?

CF have been totally stable and reliable for me. RED-RAM has been totally stable and reliable. RED-DRIVES, yes some issues. I quit shooting to RED Drive a while ago. Sure, it cost me more money to switch completely to 16GB CF and RED-RAM, but it was well worth it. Doing offloads in the field to hard drives just takes time. Those drives are not as robust as the original SSD or CF camera media will ever be. If you have time for a redundant copy, then more power to you. But all that copy is going to be is for security purposes and with luck you'll never need to access it. You will want to ingest to your primary workstations, and workflow systems, backup stations, etc.. from the camera media. It will be 4~6X faster than some Gtech drive or other 2.5" HDD media. And it removes one more potential layer for error from the equation.

IMNSHO... When we're all buying 128GB and 256GB SSD media for EPIC and shooting 5K @ 5:1 compression, we're going to be doing most of our offloading after the shoot, or at least at the end of the day, back at a proper ingest and logging station with proper RAID and backup abilities. And for productions demanding an on-set / on-site DIT service with full featured cart and data services, that's wonderful too. But you won't see them using 2.5" G-drives, FW800, using a Macbook Pro, etc.. It's going to be a full on DIT cart with a workstation or two, monitoring, etc.. My DIT cart has both a Mac Pro and a Windows system, 18TB of storage, etc..

I think the 2.5" RED STATION module is wonderful. I plan to put 2 of them on my DIT cart. I currently have the Power module with two of the CF modules. I'll upgrade this to two stacks of Power, CF, 1.8" and 2.5". All eSATA connected. I'll probably be buying 2.5" WD Caviar Blue 1TB HDD's by the carton (20 units). May as well, they're like $100 each. Then I can hand them off to clients containing footage, dailies, whatever. I will probably use Thermaltake Black-X FW800/eSATA HDD docks as well for clients. Then I can hand them a unit they can plug into any system (mostly) and read the drive if they don't have a direct means.

 

[Michael Hastings]

You do realize, that even with the fastest 2.5" HDD available today, it would take about 90 minutes to unload a 256GB RED SSD. The SSD's themselves are super fast -- they can read out at 250MB/s or more. That means a 256GB REDMAG will unload in 18 minutes (or less if it's not completely full), provided you have the bandwidth on the receiving end. A 1TB 2.5" HDD will hold 4 of those SSD's worth of data. However, it can only average about 60MB/s or so across the entire drive capacity for write speed.

What is the write speed on a typical 2.5" COTS SSD? Basically I'm just suggesting offloading from the proprietary SSDs to commodity larger cheaper SSD. Presumably you can write to them as fast as the camera can so essentially real time or better and two drives could be swapped all day long. Obviously that would be worst case, usually you don't really need continuous recording - even events typically have breaks. For wildlife and such, prerecord would solve most issues.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Off the shelf SSD's vary in write speed from about the same speed of 2.5" HDD's on up to 250MB/s or so. But they're costly, especially the fast and reliable ones, they cost just as much as the RED SSD's or more. Common SSD's like the OWC, OCZ, Crucial, Samsung, Corsair, etc.. ones are about $650 for a 256GB one. But most are based on the SandForce chipset these days, they don't perform well with compressed data, like R3D files, especially large compressed files. They degrade as they fill up and degrade over time, but quite rapidly, don't perform well in RAID installations, etc.. Not worth the money, IMO. Or at least none of them have been for me. The new 2.5" SATA SSD champion looks to be the Hitachi/Intel 500GB model that is due to ship by the end of next month. They're claiming 260MB/s sustained writes and nearly 560MB/s reads -- it's a SATA 6Gbps interface and can saturate that bus for reads. What's amazing is these units are based on SLC tech. Price tag? Um... Looks like $8K, but I can't seem to find an official release with a price. I've seen reports of it being as cheap as $2200 and as much as $12K, so who knows.

Like with any other form of storage and performance computing devices. They will get bigger (capacity), faster and cheaper in time. We can all buy 16GB USB keychains for $8.99 out of the bulk cup while at the checkout stand in the office supply stores.. I remember paying almost $1300 for my first 1GB hard drive and installing it in a 5.25" drive bay was an otherworldly experience.

In a few years, 1TB SSDs will be "small" and thrown in bags like 4GB CF cards are today... Just sayin'

Just think back, if you shot with the HVX200 or other early P2 cameras. Buying the first round of 8GB P2 cards for $1400 each. Trying to figure out how to offload them in the field via USB2.0 and keep everything flowing. 500GB 7200RPM HDD's were hot shit too and some of us bought a brand new G5 Quad just to get a FW800 port and the ability to use the new 500GB 7200rpm HDD's -- man they were the shiznit! That was about 5.5 years ago... eSATA wasn't an official standard then.

 

[Adam C Lubkin]

Whenever possible, I'll have someone with me recording sound, but for the times when it's just me shooting verite-style solo, I'm trying to figure out how to set up. With no pots or phantom power on the brain, I'll either have to add the I/O module (still no pots though), or run through a mixer, or a mixer/recorder, or at the very least a mixpre lined into the camera. I wish there was a module with XLRs, top-of-the-line preamps, pots, meters, and phantom power. For those of you who shoot solo sometimes, what will you do?

 

[Peter Osinski]

this is off topic for media but on topic for doc shooting...

I am starting to think I might be better served using the red bricks for their long recording times. What do you think about using the following setup

RED PL Mount
Brain
Module Adapter
Rear SSD Module
RED Quickplate
RED Brick
REDMOTE

I will probably be using vintage cine zooms so the weight of the RED Brick will probably even out the weight of the rig nicely for shoulder work

 

[ericyoung]

Whenever possible, I'll have someone with me recording sound, but for the times when it's just me shooting verite-style solo, I'm trying to figure out how to set up. With no pots or phantom power on the brain, I'll either have to add the I/O module (still no pots though), or run through a mixer, or a mixer/recorder, or at the very least a mixpre lined into the camera. I wish there was a module with XLRs, top-of-the-line preamps, pots, meters, and phantom power. For those of you who shoot solo sometimes, what will you do?

I think it's obvious by now that Red don't consider themselves a camcorder maker. But I agree it's sad that the audio side is not better catered for in terms of controls and features. Oh well!

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Thanks Jeff for the info on SSD's -- they are not only really expensive, but also perpetually out of stock. At least the higher capacity ones like 480-512gb. I looked into replacing my Macbook drive with one, and replacing the old stock SSD in my laptop ... I wanted to get the 480 raid version from OWC but it was NEVER in stock. Perpetually backordered.

The new ones you mention sound promising but $8,000??? Wow. Maybe for high budget film sets or other high level applications -- I think my limit on any SSD would be $3000. But that's just me, my work doesn't absolutely demand the fastest, highest performing SSD -- it's more of a preference at this point.

 

[Adam C Lubkin]

I think it's obvious by now that Red don't consider themselves a camcorder maker. But I agree it's sad that the audio side is not better catered for in terms of controls and features. Oh well!

The nice thing about the modular approach is that something could be created later on. I could even see Red partnering with a company like Sound Devices to create an EFP audio module. One possibility that I thought of is that one of the user buttons - on the side handle for instance - could be assigned to an audio channel. When you push it, you can use the scroll wheel to adjust the level, then push it again to return scroll wheel function to the iris or whatever you have it set for.

 

[ericyoung]

The nice thing about the modular approach is that something could be created later on. I could even see Red partnering with a company like Sound Devices to create an EFP audio module. One possibility that I thought of is that one of the user buttons - on the side handle for instance - could be assigned to an audio channel. When you push it, you can use the scroll wheel to adjust the level, then push it again to return scroll wheel function to the iris or whatever you have it set for.

We had that functionality with the EVF - it doesn't work in practice. The whole point of audio level pots is their instant availability and easy fingerhold. If you have to go through menus and then try to move a wobbly wheel in fine increments, and without a decent meter with PPM response, it just doesn't hack it for live audio control. A Sound Devices module would be awesome if it didn't come with a Sound Devices price tag!!

 

[Adam C Lubkin]

We had that functionality with the EVF - it doesn't work in practice. The whole point of audio level pots is their instant availability and easy fingerhold. If you have to go through menus and then try to move a wobbly wheel in fine increments, and without a decent meter with PPM response, it just doesn't hack it for live audio control. A Sound Devices module would be awesome if it didn't come with a Sound Devices price tag!!

Agreed. Just trying to be positive.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Adam that was my thought exactly -i.e. EFP audio module.

But I will say I prefer setting the input level from the LCD in the current MX setup. Having 4 inputs was useful -at a minimum.

Going back to the betacam days shooting news or docs a number of shooters would set their tone and then tape off the levels so they couldn't be mucked with.