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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic, alexa, c-500 ,scarlet, which one would you suggest?

Does anyone here have any solid proof to suggest that Arri will go 4K ?
 
Jon Jones said:
Long term as in 10 + years... No camera system is future proof that's for sure, however RED.com has made it a point to provide free upgrades and listens to the needs of the customers for the most part. Whereas other camera companies do neither. How do I think the C-500 will fair in 10-20 years? With all of the advances in modern photography, and all of the camera systems coming out, it will be junk for people in the Cinematography field. I am confident however in the reliability of RED to keep on upgrading and providing firmwares to keep their system relevant for many more years to come.

Listen man, I am not saying your C-500 is a piece of junk, it isn't. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is look at camera systems from 20 years ago and see how they are fairing... They may be doing alright, until they break, then try to find parts for them...

I only have 2 camera bodies, and I have spent much more on glass than I ever will on camera's. In 20 years my Ultra Primes will still be going strong, no doubt about that.
Click to expand...

why do you think you will get ten years out of a RED? hasn't the company only been around for 5? the redone has had that great upgrade, but the options of upgrade are now over.

I'm not saying anything bad about red- i really like red as a company, and their products rock. but i don't think people should throw out the other options blindly, tools are tools, different cameras for different situations. and i wouldn't underestimate what the c500 maybe capable of.

Im predominantly a stills guy, I have owned a lot of of Canon gear. I don't know a thing about how the C500 will be in the real world (it might end up being junk), but Canon has constantly come out with by far the most advanced and rugged professional stills cameras for 40 years, If they can put that approach into cinema cameras- which is really a completely new thing for them, i do think they will be a major player- and worth watching closely.
I know professional photographers that still love the original 1dsmk1 files (that must be getting close to ten years old), and the cameras are still holding up being very old now. even my absolutely old f1 canon that was brought as one of my first cameras worked beautifully for years even though it had been used everyday as a press camera for a decade before i brought it.. so, if you are looking for companies that had a history of reputation and reliability, then canon stella record.
I have only had one piece of canon gear die on me that cannot be repaired- my ef 85mm f1.2- but I brought this used 10 years ago, it was already 5 years old when i got it, and i often shoot 90K plus shots a year and use this lens for half of them. I dont expect a 3k lens to last20 years, but i would expect a 25k lens to.
Through CPS, I get my camera gear repaired in 3 days- often in two- i go straight to the top of the list of repairs. I can get this done in almost any country in the world- and i don't have to send my camera overseas. The service person talks to me directly on the phone, and the person has offered to loan me new prototype gear to try, keeps me informed about any progress on repairs, updates, even helps with solutions to photographic problems well outside the realms of a camera manufacturer- ie they are going to replace my focusing screen with a generic one in my canon 5dmk3 in the canon service so i keep my warrantee. I have never had more personal better service from a company.

as for the assumption of new products every year out of canon- the c500 really is the only canon product ever made to tackle this market- so we have no idea how quick the next model will come out.
Canon also regularly upgrade's and adds features to professional stills cameras - they just recently added a whole pile of new feature to the 7d even though its pretty much off there selling list.
There usually is 3 years gap between professional stills cameras- there was a gap of 4 years with the 5d2/3. This doesn't seem excessive.

I doubt anyone will be using a Red epic in twenty years time, or a c500, or an alexa, or anything from now. They will be paper weights.

when I pop into the local rental house, all the 20 year old cameras are collecting dust (sure theres the odd feature film being shot on film- but almost 100% of commercials are digital now). But there are a heap of far newer cameras collecting dust too- genesis, vipers, and red ones.

paul
 
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Non fanboy here
Ask this question over at cinematography.com for an honest impartial answer.

Having worked with all

Alexa is the most rentable (if your looking to rent)

Market saturated cameras will almost hardly rent from owner operators, and if they do..its not worth it, monetarily speaking

That said, all look good, some better than others
 
I agree with RED not being the only camera out there. Totally agree, not a RED fanboy as Phillip whats his face says.... The person that started this thread is looking for a digital cinema camera system within a particular budget. It was also my assumption that he was looking for a camera that is already available. While the C-500 will be available sometime before the end of 2012, the RED camera systems are available now. I am not advocating kicking Canon to the curb, no way. But for sure if you have a $25,000 budget, and you need camera and lenses, the C-500 is not the way to go. The SCARLET however would be awesome for you, especially if you want to spend less and get more.

Heck get a C-500 and shoot on cheapo glass. If you like all the perks Canon has, do it. Why not just get a 5dMII, and save a bunch of money for glass. If your a good story teller and know how to put your images together in a compelling way, it shouldn't matter, right?

The way Canon works in the market is they make a new product available for a jacked up price and then they lower the price when another company comes out with essentially the same thing but better. We saw it with the 4k projector, and the C-300. It's really unclear why they are serving their new PL mount zooms at such a high price when a person can really buy zooms (like the ARRI Alura zooms) for much cheaper. However It is clear they have no idea what their doing in this new market, at least not yet. But their really good at following other awesome camera manufacturers, so they may come out with something that is actually comparative price, and spec wise with the SCARLET.

As for still capabilities, I'm not really a stills guy. But I can say that all my friends shoot stills on Canon.
 
Paul,
You do make some good points about Canon - especially when addressing their still cameras. I go back over 30 years with Canon (migrated from Minolta when the A1 was introduced) so I get it.

However, I would respectfully disagree with one statement that you made related to Canon positioning the c500 as the only product in this market...

paul ross jones said:
as for the assumption of new products every year out of canon- the c500 really is the only canon product ever made to tackle this market- so we have no idea how quick the next model will come out.
paul
Click to expand...


As reference, quoting from Canon's own web site: http://usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/cinema_eos_cameras/eos_c300

Bringing Canon's expertise and decades of experience designing sensors, lenses, image processing and design to the world of motion picture capture, the EOS C300 camera has been designed to meet the demanding needs of cinema industry professionals, providing a modular, portable and eminently adaptable system of cameras, lenses and accessories built for moviemaking in the 21st century.
Featuring a unique Super 35mm Canon CMOS sensor, revolutionary Canon DIGIC DV III Image Processor and 50 Mbps 4:2:2 codec, the EOS C300 provides outstanding cinema quality movie capture. Compact, modular and compatible with Canon's existing line-up of EF and new EF Cinema lenses as well as accessories from third parties, the stunningly simple to operate EOS C300 is designed to please cinematographers for any production large and small, on location or in the studio, from shoestring to Hollywood budgets.
........
*Available separately is the EOS C300 PL, which is a PL-mount camera.



Not slamming the Canon product - could be ideal for many in the industry. Don't know when the next model will be announced, but the 500 wasn't far behind the 300 - hence my earlier comment.
Is an EPIC the best camera for everyone? Not by any means. Is it upgradeable without buying a whole new camera? Yes - and that factors into my own decision process.
The selection of the right tool for the job is up to the individual. Their experience, personal taste and research - never mind client specs - all come into play.
 
Agree'd, Canon belted out that C-500 right behind the C-300 after RED released the SCARLET all grown up. I bet Canon thought they were actually releasing a competitor to the SCARLET, until good ole' RED through them for a loop... Although RED is good for us, they don't play well with other camera manufacturers, which is why ARRI pushes the whole 2k is good enough mantra. They can't stand what RED stands for, and that's high quality media for all peoples, at a price the Dinosaur corps can't meet.
 
Stephen Mick said:
FYI…the C500 will be selling for $25,999.

http://www.filmtools.com/canon-c500-pl-mount.html
Click to expand...


early announcements said 30k, maybe they are lowering the price point after looking at the competition after all. but that 25, 999 is still going to a 1080p only camera. without the extra $$$ for a external recorder you aren't getting 4k out of it. a fully loaded scarlet package averages 20-23k. that alone is cheaper than the c500 body alone.

not a fanboy, but simple economics here. I look at the c500 and just don't get what canon is trying to do with it. but again, the proof is in the pudding as they say. if it puts out the most stellar 4k image, than it has some viable lasting power.
 
You just have to ask yourself a few questions...
like.

I want a small light weight camera... C500 / EPIC or Scarlet gets the nod.
I want to shoot RAW... EPIC or Scarlet gets the nod.
I want it to be affordable... Scarlet and c300 gets the nod.
I want 5k RAW Epic gets the nod.
I want fast frames rates... Epic gets the nod.
I want fast frames rates and RAW... Epic gets the nod.
I want a camera that can be upgraded.. Epic gets the nod.
I want Pro-res for instant editing Alexa and black magic gets the nod.

At the end of the day, there is know perfect camera....
But if RED put that mini module idea of mine on the back of the EPIC.. it would be the closest to perfect as we can get.
 
Brian F Kobylarz said:
Paul,
You do make some good points about Canon - especially when addressing their still cameras. I go back over 30 years with Canon (migrated from Minolta when the A1 was introduced) so I get it.

However, I would respectfully disagree with one statement that you made related to Canon positioning the c500 as the only product in this market...




As reference, quoting from Canon's own web site: http://usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/cinema_eos_cameras/eos_c300

Bringing Canon's expertise and decades of experience designing sensors, lenses, image processing and design to the world of motion picture capture, the EOS C300 camera has been designed to meet the demanding needs of cinema industry professionals, providing a modular, portable and eminently adaptable system of cameras, lenses and accessories built for moviemaking in the 21st century.
Featuring a unique Super 35mm Canon CMOS sensor, revolutionary Canon DIGIC DV III Image Processor and 50 Mbps 4:2:2 codec, the EOS C300 provides outstanding cinema quality movie capture. Compact, modular and compatible with Canon's existing line-up of EF and new EF Cinema lenses as well as accessories from third parties, the stunningly simple to operate EOS C300 is designed to please cinematographers for any production large and small, on location or in the studio, from shoestring to Hollywood budgets.
........
*Available separately is the EOS C300 PL, which is a PL-mount camera.



Not slamming the Canon product - could be ideal for many in the industry. Don't know when the next model will be announced, but the 500 wasn't far behind the 300 - hence my earlier comment.
Is an EPIC the best camera for everyone? Not by any means. Is it upgradeable without buying a whole new camera? Yes - and that factors into my own decision process.
The selection of the right tool for the job is up to the individual. Their experience, personal taste and research - never mind client specs - all come into play.
Click to expand...


hi, yes theres the c300, but thats not a 4k camera- so i didn't want to suggest it competes with a scarlet for that niche.

Is far as I can tell on paper, the C500 seems a pretty good deal, where the C300 seems not that good imo for the money.

sorry about moving the thread off topic earlier, I just thought the guy who started the thread needed to know good and bad about all the different products.

But I guess the best decision will be based on the type of shooting, where you are shooting, the type of work flow, the potential rental market and their expectations, etc.

Although I have rented red for myself, I do know with the Commercials I shoot stills alongside , the main camera rented is the alexa, and this has been in many countries in the world. Even in serbia, the most poplar rental commercial camera (from talking to the crew there) was alexa. But the investment is so large, that I only know of one production company that has brought one, I don't know of any individuals that has brought one, so rental would need to be a major part of your business to justify it IMO.




paul
 
Mark Toia said:
You just have to ask yourself a few questions...
like.

I want a small light weight camera... C500 / EPIC or Scarlet gets the nod.
I want to shoot RAW... EPIC or Scarlet gets the nod.
I want it to be affordable... Scarlet and c300 gets the nod.
I want 5k RAW Epic gets the nod.
I want fast frames rates... Epic gets the nod.
I want fast frames rates and RAW... Epic gets the nod.
I want a camera that can be upgraded.. Epic gets the nod.
I want Pro-res for instant editing Alexa and black magic gets the nod.

At the end of the day, there is know perfect camera....
But if RED put that mini module idea of mine on the back of the EPIC.. it would be the closest to perfect as we can get.
Click to expand...

^
A good summary right there.

The prices and feature sets are spread out pretty evenly between those four cameras, Scarlet's the cheapest and most basic, C500 offers a good half-way point between Scarlet and Epic in price and features (with the inclusion of onboard 50Mbps 4:2:2 - which is hugely popular for TV work at the moment). Epic gives you a tremendous amount of features, and Alexa is the class president at the moment in terms of general popularity (which could help you pick up more work with it).

To be honest I think it's really just a question of what your camera budget will stretch to - just get the best you can afford. The wonderful thing about these 2nd gen large-sensor cameras is that ALL of them make beautiful pictures with very little compromise, so you can't really go wrong with any of them - you just get a different set of features.

For $25k, I think your only real options are the CP.2s or the RPPs if you want new lenses (options open up further if you consider used glass). Personally I'd take the Zeiss glass over Red's lenses (I prefer their look and operation), but glass is a very personal and subjective thing.
 
why Red ?
Because R3D !
This codec is future proof. Just try Premiere cs6 and R3D and you will understand why. Prores is just for today, not tomorrow.

Olivier
 
Olivier Madar said:
why Red ?
Because R3D !
This codec is future proof. Just try Premiere cs6 and R3D and you will understand why. Prores is just for today, not tomorrow.

Olivier
Click to expand...

I believe your right.. Computers need to speed up about another 5x before Im going to be living in a fast render world... Thats why today PRO RES is great, it suits the now for quick workflow... Im glad when the day comes when computers will push R3D's at the speed of PRO RES.. cannot wait.
 
The Alexa seems pretty hot at the moment, but it's a bad investment with the Alexa Studio coming out. I don't think the resolution is a problem (personally), but I do think the Alexa is losing its value on the used market and that it will continue to. It also depends on location and market (tv, corporate, film). Apparently the F35 is hot on the west coast now. Meanwhile the Scarlet market is probably flooded there.

Personal taste plays into it. You're asking on a forum owned by red so of course there's that. And some people prefer the look or form of one camera over another (Deakins needs his optical finder and prefers the Alexa's more familiar, film-like image with better highlights; Fincher goes with a clean digital look and both do great...).

I hope you're doing more research than asking on this forum. What do your clients want? What does your DP want? How quickly do you plan to recoup your investment? For how long do you plan to keep the camera before upgrading? What are your post needs and budget? To whom are you delivering and what formats do they want? What do your competitors' rent and for what rates and to whom? I am worse at business than anyone I know, but even I would do a lot more research than just this! It's not an easy market right now.
 
Matt W. said:
The Alexa seems pretty hot at the moment, but it's a bad investment with the Alexa Studio coming out. I don't think the resolution is a problem (personally), but I do think the Alexa is losing its value on the used market and that it will continue to. It also depends on location and market (tv, corporate, film). Apparently the F35 is hot on the west coast now. Meanwhile the Scarlet market is probably flooded there.

Personal taste plays into it. You're asking on a forum owned by red so of course there's that. And some people prefer the look or form of one camera over another (Deakins needs his optical finder and prefers the Alexa's more familiar, film-like image with better highlights; Fincher goes with a clean digital look and both do great...).

I hope you're doing more research than asking on this forum. What do your clients want? What does your DP want? How quickly do you plan to recoup your investment? For how long do you plan to keep the camera before upgrading? What are your post needs and budget? To whom are you delivering and what formats do they want? What do your competitors' rent and for what rates and to whom? I am worse at business than anyone I know, but even I would do a lot more research than just this! It's not an easy market right now.
Click to expand...

Good Answer.
 
Hello Guys,
I think we should end the war, I think I'll go for the red epic m package with the brick battery's, I think everyone for their time and precious information. Thank you
 
Jon Jones said:
I don't understand why people choose the EPIC-M, over the EPIC-X, it's way more expensive and does the exact same thing right? Or am I wrong?
Click to expand...

I was Thinking the same thing but only thing i can think of was the 2 year warranty over the 1 over the X
 
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