ENG & TV work

[Joseph Ward]

Where is that Red RGB, for Scarlet/Epic, post or thread?

 

[David Rasberry]

The announced specs for the brains include a scaled ff1080p mode. This mode would have to output to some encoded RGB format other than RAW since it is scaled from the full 16:9 sensor resolution. Nobody knows what that format will be at this point, but if the objective is to make it more video work flow friendly a common 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 broadcast friendly HDSDI or HDMI component output would be best. The other question is how will it be compressed and recorded on camera?

 

[morgan_moore]

I dont know too much about delivering ENG but I am experienced at delivering stills on (faaast) deadlines for daily papers

I use a nikon D3 for this

The answer for stills is shooting both RAW and JPEG medium both created by the camera and shot to different cards, the camera has two slots

You get an instantly transmittable, product of OK quality and can go back to the RAW data for bringing the best from your images when time allows, the archive content is still the best the camera can offer

RR + H264? in camera?

S

 

[Quentin Brown]

Morgan,
This is along the lines I have been thinking, though I would say that h264 would be a bad choice as it is a long GOP codec that is hard/slow to edit with. A Pro Res 422 or 444 option would be nice but that would exclude non FCP users. Perhaps there is some other option.
Now if it could record full 3k RAW + Pro Res or equiv you could always go back to teh RAW and do a 1080 Crop in to blow up details without losing resolution - very useful for news footage or any live event coverage where something might happen on a wide shot that you wished had been zoomed in on...

 

[Quentin Brown]

Further to all this I see a couple of other important features that I haven't seen covered yet - though I haven't spent my whole life trawling through these forums so it could be in here somewhere.
Weather sealing! - The RED one specifically states that it is not designed for use in damp environments. ENG and EFP needs to be done in all weathers in all parts of the globe including jungles and swamps. This seems very important to me though no doubt some bright spark will come up with a set of custom weatherproofed housings for standard Scarlet ENG package setups if necessary. Would be nice if it was built in though. Also the recent samples seen show a big cooling vent on the top of the brain. Not exactly weather proof that nor would you want to block it with a weatherproof housing.

I would also consider the varicam ramping functionality as possibly useful in ENG in some situations but the RED one does not record sound when doinf varispeed recording. If you are doing live events ENG/EFP style you may well want that sound that you would be missing because all your sound is recorded on camera for easy post/ field editing in camera. In news you can get away without it I suppose as audiences tolerate so much more and there is always reporter narration to cover its abscence, but for docs and the like you may well have liked to have had it. How it is captured and synced to the material is another matter to figure out though but I guess it would have to be in a separate but somehow linked file so it's not stretched by the varispeed image settings back onto the project timebase but is still associated with the clip so it doesn't get lost. I could see myself possibly shooting in some situations at the fastest frame-rate so that I have the option for silky smooth slow-mo if something happens that warrants it but otherwise just using the footage at normal frame-rate/timebase with it's sync sound.

The powered B4 lens connector sounds good to me as I like the ergonomics and one handed control of a zoom rocker switch mounted to the lens assembly but I can see myself needing to shoot solo as a self shooting PD on some occasions like for low budget docs so autofocus and autoexposure would be pretty necessary in these situations where I am trying to monitor sound, frame the shot, think about coverage, direct the participants, avoid tripping over doorframes and holding a boom mic in my left hand trying to keep it out of shot but in close enough to capture good audio! Budgets are tight in these days of digital broadcasting with so many channels competing and it seems that quality cameras are cheap but enough crew to make good use of them is too expensive!

 

[Chris Kennedy]

I don't know about red for eng purposes. Even though the 2/3 Scarlet can have an eng lens on it, it still doesn't seem practical to me for eng use. I'd push the Panasonic HPX 3700. After all it is 10bit, and go 4:4:4. With almost the same dof as 16mm, and the same when (ever) the 2/3 scarlet would come out.
But that's just me (at least for eng purposes)

 

[David Rasberry]

I don't know about red for eng purposes. Even though the 2/3 Scarlet can have an eng lens on it, it still doesn't seem practical to me for eng use. I'd push the Panasonic HPX 3700. After all it is 10bit, and go 4:4:4. With almost the same dop as 16mm, and the same when (ever) the 2/3 scarlet would come out.
But that's just me (at least for eng purposes)

I would tend to agree. True ENG cameras are very highly evolved efficient products as is the associated work flow. RED is really designed for more deliberative creative work. Seems a shame to waste it on Electronic Noise Gathering. :smiley:

 

[Steve Gibby]

I would tend to agree. True ENG cameras are very highly evolved efficient products as is the associated work flow. RED is really designed for more deliberative creative work. Seems a shame to waste it on Electronic Noise Gathering. :smiley:

RED One for ENG? Nah...

RED One for EFP? Yup, especially non-hardlined, but also some hardlined...

Scarlet for ENG? Maybe, we'll see when the tech specs are finalized...

Scarlet (and Epic) for EFP? Yup, especially non-hardlined, but depending on the finalized tech specs, hardlined may be a surprise strength too...

The future is looking way interesting eh!? :thumbup1:

 

[Stuart English]

Scarlet and ENG

Scarlet and ENG

Even though the 2/3 Scarlet can have an eng lens on it, it still doesn't seem practical to me for eng use.
I'd push the Panasonic HPX 3700. After all it is 10bit, and go 4:4:4.

Not that we are necessarily designing 2/3" Scarlet for ENG use :001_smile:, but what do you think is not practical about it for that application?

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Not that we are necessarily designing 2/3" Scarlet for ENG use :001_smile:, but what do you think is not practical about it for that application?

There's a reason why people turn to ENG cameras, and there's those who turn to EFP. I started out more as an eng shooter, more run-and-gun smaller crew type stuff. For me if I'm shooting with an ENG camera the buttons are where I would expect it, built in ND filters is a must, shutter is where you'd expect it, and lots of housing for damp conditions to choose from, not to mention a solid workflow and archiving. The 3700 has just as much dynamic range than the red, and you could get pretty creative with it; kindof like the F900, an ENG style camera, but so much a beast you could be extremely creative with it.

Scarlet and Epic are beasts of themselves their designed for more creative work, and the workflow isn't as smooth as eng. I agree a lot with what Gibby said.

I love the red for EFP use, but isn't really practical for the needs of a TV studio, the scarlet does sound more pracitcal but not as much as an eng camera; for eng purposes at least.

But lets wait until the scarlet/epic do come out, and pass judgment then.
Sorry about the rant, had a long-not sober night last night! :cheers2:

 

[Joseph Ward]

Not that we are necessarily designing 2/3" Scarlet for ENG use :001_smile:,

Ohh I wish that smile is a Yes for ENG use!:w00t:

You guys can corner all the markets if you added that! Scarlet 2/3 would be a perfect fit, if not all brains, for Hardlined ENG! Please, Pretty Please! :001_smile:

 

[Stephen Strangways]

My 2 cents: built-in ND filters are a must for ENG work.

 

[Quentin Brown]

Was I getting too off topic?

Was I getting too off topic?

Further to all this I see a couple of other important features that I haven't seen covered yet - though I haven't spent my whole life trawling through these forums so it could be in here somewhere.
Weather sealing! - The RED one specifically states that it is not designed for use in damp environments. ENG and EFP needs to be done in all weathers in all parts of the globe including jungles and swamps. This seems very important to me though no doubt some bright spark will come up with a set of custom weatherproofed housings for standard Scarlet ENG package setups if necessary. Would be nice if it was built in though. Also the recent samples seen show a big cooling vent on the top of the brain. Not exactly weather proof that nor would you want to block it with a weatherproof housing.

I would also consider the varicam ramping functionality as possibly useful in ENG in some situations but the RED one does not record sound when doinf varispeed recording. If you are doing live events ENG/EFP style you may well want that sound that you would be missing because all your sound is recorded on camera for easy post/ field editing in camera. In news you can get away without it I suppose as audiences tolerate so much more and there is always reporter narration to cover its abscence, but for docs and the like you may well have liked to have had it. How it is captured and synced to the material is another matter to figure out though but I guess it would have to be in a separate but somehow linked file so it's not stretched by the varispeed image settings back onto the project timebase but is still associated with the clip so it doesn't get lost. I could see myself possibly shooting in some situations at the fastest frame-rate so that I have the option for silky smooth slow-mo if something happens that warrants it but otherwise just using the footage at normal frame-rate/timebase with it's sync sound.

The powered B4 lens connector sounds good to me as I like the ergonomics and one handed control of a zoom rocker switch mounted to the lens assembly but I can see myself needing to shoot solo as a self shooting PD on some occasions like for low budget docs so autofocus and autoexposure would be pretty necessary in these situations where I am trying to monitor sound, frame the shot, think about coverage, direct the participants, avoid tripping over doorframes and holding a boom mic in my left hand trying to keep it out of shot but in close enough to capture good audio! Budgets are tight in these days of digital broadcasting with so many channels competing and it seems that quality cameras are cheap but enough crew to make good use of them is too expensive!

:emote_couch:

As no one has picked up on my comments, should I post them in their own thread or in some other thread as they are off topic or are they too pedestrian/inconsequential or already debated?

Having said that I should probably wait a reply before unloading my brain into further text splurge but I can't help myself....

The reason I talk about the stuff in the final paragraph is that in my current mind the pricing of the Scarlet fixed 2/3" puts it up against the Z1's and EX1's as a possible b-roll/ self shooting Director/Producer for reality/ low budget doc's cam. As long as it has the ergonomics and automation features they might need. Goodness knows how many of these cams have been sold and then the power of the scarlet would be the versatility to use it for this when/if needed but also shoot really high end stuff on it. I can only afford one camera - the basic lighting, sound and grip equipment to set myself up for production is nearly killing my budget by itself - so I want that one camera to be able to do everything!

 

[Terry Wester]

Not that we are necessarily designing 2/3" Scarlet for ENG use :001_smile:, but what do you think is not practical about it for that application?

For us it would be:

1. Powered B4 lens connector with hand control of a zoom rocker servo mounted to the lens assembly.

2. Auto iris .

3. Built-in ND filters.

We are working on a reality/adventure show that will start shooting late March of next year. We would love to be able to shoot with the Scarlet if they are available, and up for the task.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Not that we are necessarily designing 2/3" Scarlet for ENG use :001_smile:, but what do you think is not practical about it for that application?

Not that I would like to see Scarlet used for reporting news
...but as far as EFP goes...not in specific order: *


1. Handle

a) Form

- SLR type of handle is not optimized for EFP, or recording moving images for that matter. It will create more and different type of shakiness, due to the different (IMO unsuitable) weight distribution of the camera (when in compact mode) and different type of holding it. It will strain fist muscles more when held longer. It will strain forearm muscles more when held longer. Again, it is not designed for motion imagery.
- Cine - Simple round rod is stone age. It serves purpose but reduces options and multitasking. It has its advantages, but it is not exactly the best solution for this purpose.
- ENG/EFP handle is the most anatomical, its form and strap enable holding small cameras with less force and care (needs a wide strap). Its volume can be used for card reader or battery. It sits firmly in wrist. You have multiple controls in one hand. It will cause the least strain for fist and forearm muscles of all three solutions mentioned. It is designed for motion imagery.

b) Location

- Shoulder mount cameras have it on lens, small cameras incorporated into body and weight balanced (sort of). Both solutions have an advantage for different types of shooting and types of camera movement specifically. Best possible solution would be under... c)

c) Customization

- Movable handle, but being able to get very close to the body if needed - ON the body itself. Why ? Because that way the axis of vibration is closer to the lens axis and any type of shakiness will look better - which is specially important for small cameras/setups.
- Not only like usual cine handles on rods - or as designed accessory in current DSMC phase (partially) - because it creates issue mentioned under no. 2.
- It should also be able to rotate around its center for normal grip in all angles.

d) Controls

- Zoom rocker is a must. Some may like all on the lens, some +/- buttons, but being able to precisely and practically zoom with right hand while pulling focus with left (handheld), the way you can with a zoom rocker is irreplaceable.
I would also add a small touchpad (not screen) under thumb for semi-auto focusing (choosing focus point).


Solution suggestion:

Handle designed in ENG/EFP style with two additions:
- additional form difference - back end (behind small finger) thick as front, making handle more "around the fist" - so it sits even better in the fist + you have more room for any connector or card reader;
- additional controls - touchpad for choosing focus point, controls as seen on current handle, etc.


2. Cine world approach to design

- ENG/EFP - Mostly tool-less mounting, directly to body. Less volume and balance of inertia/momentum. Faster use without time lost on customizing your tool. Cine approach with Christmas tree in your hands or on your shoulder will get you stuck in the crowd, catch a wire, branch, net, dress or hair or something, make you loose a shot or make people waiting for you because you are adjusting 96 attachments and with both hands. If you have an assistant for that you will loose time + practicality because you could usually do everything by yourself.
Same tree will also make dynamic shots more challenging whereas small camera should make those easier.

Speed of use example - current RED monitor solution needs both hands when adjusting - bad solution for fast tempo EFP shoot.
(Not to mention ENG - "Sorry Prime Minister, after I position the journalist & her hand, check my sound, lamp, iris, focus and composition just another sec. for me to tighten my monitor").

- Rods on a small EFP camera are redundant because they beat the point of having a small EFP camera.

You will need a larger bag, you will take it out and put it in the bag slower, you will have to take care for more parts, more parts are heavier, it cannot be handheld how ever you like because rods and parts get it your way. Weight distribution is horrible and uneven and handheld has to suffer. Rods have a good purpose but they (and all that comes on them) can be very limiting for a small camera.

RED doesn't have to obey any heritage, it can provide the best option, the crossover evolved option. Quality of Cine, additional ability of Photo and speed & practicality of EFP.

Solution suggestion:

Mounting logic with the smallest volume - distance from the camera, shortest customizing time and fewest additional parts (mounting acessories, arms, bolts etc..)...

-which gives me an idea...(new topic)


3. Body

Slightly too sharp edges which will leave marks on the body and feel unpleasant when holding longer against a body in an untypical shot (guesswork based on seen design).



4. Manual controls

Buttons & knobs with customizable functions + touchscreen for a menu

Current RED remote is a good start but is not quite there yet. No separate rotary knobs + it is not optimized for smart side and left hand > unless **

I suggest additional small manual control module, more wider than taller (unless **), also mountable anywhere (even directly on the camera body, without rods or additional holder/arm). Controls in shape distinctive horizontal groups by three. NOT four or five. Three is most practical.


** if RED remote can be operated sideways


5. ND's






Sorry for the long post.



* since we don't know the final design yet

 

[James Brundige]

Not that we are necessarily designing 2/3" Scarlet for ENG use :001_smile:, but what do you think is not practical about it for that application?

Speed. I love my R1, but I always keep an XDCAM in the van if things are moving quickly. It takes me much longer to set up a Red shot, even if the camera is stored in a built configuration. Audio adds another step.

ENG is out of the question for Red. For EFP it's ok, as long as you are not in a fast breaking situation.

Perhaps Scarlet with a B4 could change that, but only if there is communication between camera and lens. Auto functions are dissed in these forums, but have saved my bacon many times when reality is happening. I never leave auto iris turned on, but being able to hit that button and keep your attention on where the action is, is invaluable. There's reasons built-in automatic mics, sealed one piece units, and balanced shoulder mounts have evolved.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Not that we are necessarily designing 2/3" Scarlet for ENG use :001_smile:, but what do you think is not practical about it for that application?

Id think an interlaced option is essential for and ENG application. Also 2/3 or smaller sensor. For the most part great depth of field is more important than shallower depth of field. Perhaps some means of rapid auto focus and iris facility.

 

[clem]

anyone know if it's possible to get a clean output from the HD-SDI port? We're currently using a 3-red setup in a church setting (40-50min sermon) we edit the sermon in post for our other campuses and for the web and it works great, but because i can't disable the timecode/rec dot on the sdi output for the live audience, i have to digitally zoom the camera feeds on the video switcher. Is it possible to get a completely clean video output from the red (ideally something where i could turn on my zebras and not have them go out through the hd-sdi)?

thanks, and if this is the wrong thread or if this feature already exists, please forgive my ignorance

 

[Stuart English]

Clean feed output

Clean feed output

Anyone know if it's possible to get a clean output from the HD-SDI port?

Not as it stands on existing RED ONE firmware Clem, but for sure on the new cameras.

If there were enough demand we could probably allow it on RED ONE also.

 

[clem]

well, anyone else out there interested in this feature? if it is possible on the RED One firmware, i have 3 cameras that would greatly benefit from it, i'm sure there are others out there.