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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ENG does not belonge here

I think it's clear from this discussion that RED cameras, especially the Epic and now Scarlet, have the ability to cut across many different style of digital capture.
I will be using an Epic to shoot my next wildlife documentary. This will be my first time shooting with RED on a major documentary.

For me, the greatest challenge for wildlife is focal range. Using 2/3 inch cameras with ENG/EFP style zooms like the Canon 28-500mm F2.8 -2x extender gives you a lot of flexibility in a pretty small light package, especially for wildlife shooting.

Using DSLR lenses is a bit more limiting in terms of focal range, and requires a slightly different approach. Just as PL mount Super 16mm lenses did.
My Epic may not be the primary camera for all the projects I do, but it is the right choice for the next two projects, as they were specifically crafted for this camera from the treatment up.

In the natural history world we are always striving for the best image quality. When the BBC switched over to video, it really moved our who industry over from film. It was not any easy adjustment for me. Until RED I really missed the image quality of my Super 16mm camera shooting 7245, but I liked the flexibility of video (now even that's an old term).
I think the Epic/Scarlet is pretty exciting for Natural History filmmakers, especially because of the high speed capture (that we had on Super 16mm), HDRx, RAW format (the idea of having a negative again is really exciting), and the compact size. For me, the challenge are mostly focal range, and managing all that data in the field. But I'm also really excited by the whole thing. We just finished color grading a NH show with a really great colorist, but I know we were both thinking it... too bad it wan't shot on RED :)
 
Joe,

You'll find both Epic and Red One to be very potent wildlife cameras when set up and accessorized correctly. As you know bulk and weight in a rig decrease mobility, which in turn limits the type of shots you can get in a dynamic environment like wildlife production. As I mentioned in a previous post on this thread, I've done extensive wildlife production with Red One since 2007, and then with Epic since early this year.

Yes, when you go to 35mm still zooms for wilddife production its hard to get the focal range you're used to with B4 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms. With my Red cameras my solutions for long focal length zooms have been two vintage 35mm still zooms: a stock Canon FD 150-600 f5.6L zoom with Century PL mount conversion (mount only), and a Nikon 50-300 f4.5 AIS zoom with the Nikon mount. The Canon is hard to find stock, but the great advantage for wildlife shooting is that it has a sliding knob on the lower lens case that you push forward to zoom in, and pull back to widen out. you simply twist the same knob to rack rack focus. The lens holds focus throughout a zoom, and the action is smooth. There's a still shot of me using that lens for wildlife shooting in Alaska in my Redconnector profile link below in my signature, along with lots of low resolution wildlife clips in my Artbeats stock footage collection link.

Another excellent zoom for shooting wildlife with Red cameras is the Sigma 120-300 f2.8. Its crisp and clean, and add in a 1.4x and 2x and you have lots of focal lengths to choose from. With Epic and the new smart Canon mount you should be able to also use some of the electronic features of that lens too - something I had no option to do with the Canon 150-600 or the Nikon 50-300 because they're both manual lenses.

Good luck with your wildlife production! Feel free to contact me via my regualr email address and I'd be happy to answer other specific questions you may have about wildlife production with Red cameras. Email: steve (at) cut4 (dot) tv
 
Bruno,

Thanks for explaining that. I think now everyone understands better what you meant.
 
Hi Steve, That's great advice. I've been to Artbeats before on a stock footage search, really beautiful stuff! Great to finally meet you, at least virtually. I actually have a Canon 150-600mm century conversion (PL mount). I used with my Super 16 camera in the day, but I thought I would give this new Canon mount a try (if it arrives in time- fingers crossed). My 35PL collection is only that one lens, everything else is Super 16, so I thought I would try going with the EOS mount. The Sigma 120-300 f2.8 sounds like a good option.

I'd really like to work out something with the range of my 150-600mm. I have a 70-200mm Canon and a 100-400mm (just not sure how the 100-400 will hold up on the Epic).
If you don't mind I might run some lens question by you in the coming days and get your feedback, if you have time. Thanks again your post has been very helpful.
 
Steve, thanks to be sure my friend......you know what they say yes? Even a blind dog can find a bone every now and then. Just lucky to have been a part of a LARGE crew on the migrations segments....and around some extremely talented and hard working folks.

this said.....i'm quite happy with RED/EPIC in natural history genre about 85% of the time.....now running around with the red 1 in 2007 in africa vs. a sony ex1 and trying to shoot quick action.....the ex1 ruled. But sitting in the bush waiting for a lion to pounce on prey at 90fps......i like RED. Although....in 2007 i recall Zebras and Giraffs (with their color and stripe patters) used to send the R1 into shut down mode.....
 
Johnny Friday said:
Steve, thanks to be sure my friend......you know what they say yes? Even a blind dog can find a bone every now and then. Just lucky to have been a part of a LARGE crew on the migrations segments....and around some extremely talented and hard working folks.

this said.....i'm quite happy with RED/EPIC in natural history genre about 85% of the time.....now running around with the red 1 in 2007 in africa vs. a sony ex1 and trying to shoot quick action.....the ex1 ruled. But sitting in the bush waiting for a lion to pounce on prey at 90fps......i like RED. Although....in 2007 i recall Zebras and Giraffs (with their color and stripe patters) used to send the R1 into shut down mode.....
Click to expand...

This is sooooooooo true! It's about the right tools for the job! Planet Earth used all that Varicam footage, which people can be sniffy about with its 720p and all, but hey, it looks great really and that's what counts! (I'm not sitting there counting pixels!) The Red One might be less than ideal in some situations but I'm suspecting that the EPIC and Scarlet cameras with their smaller profiles, may really start to find a solid niche. Maybe they will be more zebra friendly too! ;) The Ex1, still has life in it as well! Really kinda small but with quite a punch, especially with a Nano/Hyerdeck/Ninja/Kona etc. I'm also curious to see what might come from the HPX250 ("new" Panasonic, basically a HPX370 in an EX1/HVX200 kinda form factor, looks like maybe a great match for Natural History)

I'm pretty sure the new red cameras are going to have an impact on the natural history world but there will be other cameras too, even in the same film and personally I wouldn't want it any other way. I expect we will continue to even see the Varicam around for a while yet because it does it's own thing too. Mix it up I say! ;)

love

Freya
 
Hey Joe, On the same note as above, the Ang. 12-240 with a doubler covers the Red and gives a pretty huge range (24-480mm) in a small package. With Red's 800 iso, the stop loss is no big deal for most exterior work. That lens looks pretty damn good stopped down a bit. Just a thought. If I had to go shoot in the bush, that's what I'd take.

Cheers,

Nick
 
Epic for wildlife

Epic for wildlife

Steve Gibby said:
Joe,


Another excellent zoom for shooting wildlife with Red cameras is the Sigma 120-300 f2.8. Its crisp and clean, and add in a 1.4x and 2x and you have lots of focal lengths to choose from. With Epic and the new smart Canon mount you should be able to also use some of the electronic features of that lens too - something I had no option to do with the Canon 150-600 or the Nikon 50-300 because they're both manual lenses.
Email: steve (at) cut4 (dot) tv
Click to expand...

Big Africa shoot coming up, so I'm franticly gearing up. Shooting test footage of cows and horses, easy to find here. (though we had a bobcat in the yard last week - the day before Epic arrived - damn.)

I've been quite happy with the 150-600 you suggested three years ago, but I'm trying out some new setups for Epic. The form factor is so much better; everything gets smaller, tripod , batteries, media. So I'm looking for a lighter alternative to the big Canon. Canon 100-400 is sharp, but a little lacking in contrast. How's that Sigma on contrast? Build?

For DOF, I might even try 3K. That would make a 120-300 a really nice wildlife range. Any wisdom there?

I'm testing a couple Canon primes, but I find they're a challenge when stuff starts to happen quickly. I'll try the Nikon 200-400 if the mount comes out in the next month, but mixed reviews there, and very $$$.

PS. Hi, Gardners. Family still working together?
 
Hey James,

I haven't used the Sigma 120-300 f2.8 on Epic yet - but I have read some reviews of the lens from still shooters and they were really positive. The reports were that the build is solid, contrast is very good, the lens is quite crisp. It is wildlife and sports shooters who wrote the reviews. The lens costs $3,200 on B&H. Link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/755328-USA/Sigma_136101_120_300mm_f_2_8_EX_DG.html

The lens weighs just 6.5 pounds and is only 11.4" long.

Add in a 1.4x and you'd have a 168-420 f4 zoom (on FF35). Add in a 2x and you'd have a 240-600 f5.6 zoom (on FF35).

I've been thinking of testing out the above on Epic for sports and wildlife shooting for months now - but haven't gotten around to it.

As I remember, Red has tested out many Sigma lenses on Epic and entered them into the Red database. You might just check with Red to see if they've tested the Sigma 120-300 on Epic.

I've been using Miller tripods since August 2007 with my Red cameras. I'm now sponsored by Miller, so for mobile lightweight Epic tripod setups, I use the Miller Compass 25 head, in tandem with the Miler Solo 1505 spreader-less CF legs. The head has excellent action, the combo weighs just 13 pounds, and the head will support up to 31 pounds. We tested a Compass 25 head with Epic M 0008 clear back in March, using Ketch's spreader-less Gitzo legs. The results were excellent.

Miller Compass 25/Solo 1505 CF combo link: http://www.millertripods.com/produc...ck_url=/system-packages/100mm?system=2&page=3

Hope the above info helps you out...
 
Thanks, Gibby, very generous with your advice as always. I've been using the Miller solo legs for a while - easy and light. I have 75mm and 100mm bowl versions. Sachtler heads, but that's my history showing. I might give the Sigma a try, but I'm a little nervous because Sigma is the only lens to die completely on me - in the central Amazon. Luckily, I had Nikons to cover.

Do your teams ever shoot 3K, or only 4? I'm wondering if that's a viable way to get a little more reach and DOF. That and f/8 when critters are running fast.
 
Happy to help James. Yes, those Miller Solo legs are great for mobile work. I've had pretty good luck with the Sigma lenses I've used.

Even with RedOne we've shot a lot of 3k for sports and wildlife when we needed higher frame rates to overcrank shots. With Epic we've been shooting 5k when its needed, 4kHD for most everything else, and some 3k when we wanted/needed even higher frame rates. As you know, most wildlife and sports motion sequences, where the subject is moving moderately fast to fast, are shot around f8, so DOF is deeper. If your finish is for HDTV, then 3k is more than enough resolution - Graeme's 85% after debayer leaves 2.55k, which downsamples to 1080p very well. Then again, you may want to shoot most of your Africa program in 4kHD, then just go to 3k when you want to seriously overcrank some action shots.
 
Thanks Nick and James for the lens advice. I've been playing around with the idea of shooting with PL mount, but just feel for what I am doing the lighter DSLR lenses are better suited, at least for this shoot.
I ordered a Nikon mount as well as the Canon mount, but still waiting on both.
On the Canon mount for the Epic the current firmware does not support extenders from what I hear, but this would not be a problem with the Nikon mount. The Sigma 120-300mm and the Nikon 50-300 sound like good choices. Right now I am doing all my testing with my Sony F3 and Nikon mount.
 
Extenders will currently work on the EPIC Canon mount... They're just not firmware supported to be properly recognized and to relay lens communication. So using an extender makes your electronic "smart" mount into a "dumb" mount. Currently the only Nikon mount available for the EPIC is the Optitek one. It's great, but it's a "dumb" mount with no electronic communication or lens control. RED should have their own electronic "smart" Nikon mount here soon.
 
Sorry to have drifted the discussion into lenses, but always good to hear Gibby's advice.

Back on topic. IMHO Red has one great weakness for EFP. Audio implementation is still poor. The Pro I/O is a chance to fix that, but without good meters (higher rez than the viewfinder versions) and pots (physical gain control), my EX-1 is still better. In fact, I shoot most interviews (unless it's a really complex background) on the Sony. I'm working on a Sound Devices rig that I hope will fix that problem. My background is in audio, so I'm pretty picky. (in the small world department, my last audio job was for Rob Gardner in Antarctica 1995)

I understand Red's focus on cinema. Audio comes later, hopefully soon. Epic now only takes audio at 24 fps, so I'll be shooting double system for 30 fps American TV. And interviews on the EX-1. It's a pain to carry a separate camera system, but for long interviews, I like having greater compression and not the huge files to manage in the field. I have a wallet of SD cards that holds 28 hours of XDCAM.

That's why I think Red pulled back from the 2/3 Scarlet idea. There are lots of good cheap solutions in that niche.

As far as EFP imaging goes, Epic is amazing. It fixes all the shortcomings of the Red One, and and takes it to a new level. The form factor is much more portable, and battery and media options that much better as well. I haven't done a big remote shoot yet, so still curious about how much data we'll have to manage in the field. Hoping for a Thunderbolt Red Station option to help laptop storage solutions. I sprung for 4 256 Gb Redmags, and hope I can keep up on long shooting days. I'll post my new backpack rig when the battery module (the last key piece) arrives.
 
I agree. I am happy to see the Epic put to use making films. For news footage, I am perfectly happy with anything of clear watchable quality. The News uses camera shots as a part of their vehicle for telling the story. The R1/Epic IS the vehicle for telling stories.

David Battistella said:
Yes.

It's true.

News organizations did not flock toward buying RED cameras. I've always seen it as a replacement for 35mm film never for Electronic News Gathering.

I'm happy about that. Plenty of cheap video cameras are made for news gathering including the iPhone 4.

David
Click to expand...
 
Will,

If you read through this entire thread basically everyone on it agrees as follows:

Q: Red One, Epic, and Scarlet for ENG (Electronic News Gathering)?
A: Not a highly practical choice for a variety of factors (see my Sticky post at the top of this forum)

Q: Red One, Epic, and Scarlet for EFP (Electronic Field Production)?
A: Definitely a good choice, and has been used widely for EFP work.

Q: Red One, Epic, and Scarlet for cine style production (making "films" even though obviously no film is used)?
A: Definitely a good choice, and has been used widely for cine-style work.

End notes: Some don't like the traditional terms ENG and EFP when reference is made to using electronic cameras like the Red cameras (which technology is an outgrowth of electronic EFP and DSLR camera systems) - but they're curiously quite happy with using an even more anachronistic term of "film" when describing their work with these electronic Red cameras.

Everybody doesn't make "films" with their Red cameras - in fact a huge percentage of Red camera users make television programs, and other forms of motion media projects with Red cameras. Its a very diverse industry now - and thus there's a great diversity of valid approaches to using these modular and adaptable cameras made by Red.
 
Steve Gibby said:
Will,

If you read through this entire thread basically everyone on it agrees as follows:

Q: Red One, Epic, and Scarlet for ENG (Electronic News Gathering)?
A: Not a practical choice for a variety of factors.

Q: Red One, Epic, and Scarlet for EFP (Electronic Field Production)?
A: Definitely a good choice, and has been used widely for EFP work.

Q: Red One, Epic, and Scarlet for cine style production (making "films" even though obviously no film is used)?
A: Definitely a good choice, and has been used widely for cine-style work.

End note: Some don't like the traditional terms ENG and EFP when reference is made to using electronic cameras like the Red cameras (which technology is an outgrowth of electronic EFP and DSLR camera systems) - but they're curiously quite happy with using an even more anachronistic term as "film" when describing their work with these electronic Red cameras.
Click to expand...

Thanks for summing up.

Great work!
 
I still long for a more field practical higher than 2k resolution S16mm format option from Red. The 3.3u pixel format of the 2/3" Scarlet would support 4kHD 3840x2160 in an S16 sized sensor.
There are many of us who would prefer this over 35mm with higher frame rate performance, 60fps @ 4kHD and 120fps @ 3k like the original Scarlet spec for general production work even if it cost the same as Scarlet-X.
 
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