Editing Red Feature Film

[fatmonichi]

Hey guys

I have just shot my first feature on the RED (I have a feeling its one of the first in Canada) and coming from a Avid/ PC background, I have read through almost every post that has been posted in RED USER. Very helpful indeed. We have some great footage and I want to do this the APPLE route as it seems more simpler.

I was wondering if some one could guide me with what I want to do, in terms of a practical and cost effective work flow.

This is what I got but have not physically tried as I am uncertain if this is possible and hence have not purchased my system yet.(Please don't suggest to buy an Assimilate because as much as I would love to own it I am broke)

1. SO we shot on RED

2. Dumped on 4TB Raid 0 (PROAVIO) which connects via ESATA to the POWER MAC INTEL QUAD 2.8, 8 GB RAM, NVIDIA 8800.(which I plan to buy once one of you experts have approved my plan of action)

3. Then I convert all the footage shot 4K to Pro Res Offline, this from what I have heard is better than using the proxies, that are created while shooting. RIGHT?

4. Edit everything at 2K on Final cut, Offline. For monitoring should I use the Decklink extreme HD or some KONA card. The difference in cost is about a couple throusands but does that justify buying the KONA, just for monitoring purposes. Should I offline on 1K, does it make a difference?

5. Now this is where it gets complicated. We plan to MASTER for Film Print on 2K. I want to Online and grade this on After Effects CS3 on Apple in DPX.
-What is a good card to see realistic colors so the grading should be accurate. I plan to grade on a HDTV monitor, is this a good idea, can I be close to accurate using the Decklink Extreme card with the hdmi or sdi output. Should I get a better video card like the Quadro FX5500, will it make a big difference.

6. So yeah coming back to the complicated part, here it is. I want to bring into Avid 4K DPX files, as opposed to 2k DPX files as I want to freedom to PAN and SCAN as freely as possible and as we have alot of CGI work in After effect having a 4K plate is much effective. Mind you I definitely plan to finish on 2K but 4K gives me more liberty to set my frame i.e. M.S. or M.C.S.
- DO i have the system cofig to handle 4K dpx files. I am not looking for realtime playback or anything just the ability to COMP, MASK, TRACKING, COLOR CORRECT.

7. I want to do my CG work in 3ds max as that is what I know. How well does that run in BOOT camp.

I am sure alot of these answers have been dealt with in previous posts but no one has really given a hardware and software specific conclusive and definitely okay to any one workflow and lot of them are just suggested methods and not in practical use for a long project.

Because I am doing a 90 minute movie and all this becomes complicated as I dont have a huge budget`. Just enough to buy the MAC is all, and I plan to finish a 4k film in 2K. At the same time suing 4K plates for CGI and colr grading something near accurate for delivery.

Lets not start with the audio issues.

Thanks in advance

 

[Vigen Vartanov]

3. You lose time . Better to use Proxy . First to make first cut , and then go to redcine with Crimson XML.
Sow you will get 90 of really footage and then you need to render out from REDCINE in Log and then work with 4K , or 2K footage.
5. About color space. Better to get good monitor . and make calibration . Also for film print better do it on projector with calibration .
If no better to buy software like CineSpace http://rsrhq.com/ . And then you will get colors on screen "same" as it will be on film.
Better to have or rent Luster 2K system , you will get realties in Grading. .

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

what you want is possible...but 4 TB is definitly not enough.
and if you have a lot of time for rendering, then finishing in Aftereffects is ok.

do everything you want...but i would rather work with a posthouse...
dude its your feature.

you are paying heavy dollars for everything, but not for the ColorCorrection?

 

[Vigen Vartanov]

you are paying heavy dollars for everything, but not for the ColorCorrection?

Yes ColorCorrection must be on first place in you budjet . And you are paning to print on film , CC must be mane position .

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Cost?

Cost?

(Please don't suggest to buy an Assimilate because as much as I would love to own it I am broke)

If you add all that up it may come to quite a bit of money, especially when you back up the files.

My feature film system is "freeish", and can edit can CC at 4K. I am still working on things, but using the "freeish" program XnView (tm) it is possable to import TIFF or DPX into my 48bit file type for CC and editing, then export 24bpp to BMP and then to DPX.

Another way is to just do proxy editing and conform to your DPX files that are CC in another program, since the Aggregate command just copies the frame files in film recorder order, it does not matter what type they are.

Or you can mix both methods, do some of the CC in my program and some in other programs, convert those done in my program to DPX then Aggregate all the DPX to an output set for the film recorder.

The sound mixing part of my system is desigined for making feature films and has 256 tracks for each of 10000 shots and 256 full length tracks for after picture lock.

My programs run on low cost computers, to do a 4K DI you would want maybe 20 to 40 computers on a network with hot swap HD for backups.

It is "freeish" and is being worked on so things may get better as time goes on. It is being designed for "no budget" feature making where high quality is wanted by using a uncompressed 2k or 4k DI, full process from film scanning to DIY film recorder output.

The computers can be sold when done to recover some of the cost and new ones purchased for the next project...

 

[Dustin Cross]

First off, most likely your movie will end up on SD DVD.

Your workflow sounds pretty good. I prefer using Redline to convert all the footage to Prorez over editing the Proxys. If you edit fast, lots of scrubbing, put lots of Proxys on the timeline FCP hangs and every now and then crashes. It is more stable with Prorez files. They both work.

If I were you, I would convert all my footage to Prorez. If you recorded audio on your Red, use QTcoffee to add the audio from your proxy to your new Prorez files. If you search Reduser you will find a post I made about doing this.

Edit your movie. Decklink or AJA are similar in quality for capture and preview. It is the extra features that separate them. If you don't need the extra feature, get the cheaper card.

Get the best studio monitor you can afford for color correction. The JVCs are really nice for around $4500. Don't use an HDTV.

Finish your movie with the 2k or 1080p Prorez files you created. Do your VFX shots in 4K with AE.

If there is interest in your project from major distributors who want a 35mm print or a 4K digital print, they will front the money to finish your movie in 4K correctly. This is VERY unlikely. Of the thousands of movies submitted to Sundance each year, less than .1% ever get theatrical distribution.

Don't waste money where it doesn't need to be spent. Finishing in 4k DPX with no budget is pointless. No one will ever see it in 4k. They will see the SD DVD or SD digibeta. Maybe you will get into a festival that will play your movie is HDCAM. Prorez HQ is better quality than HDCAM.

This comes from someone who has done over a dozen low budget features.


Mahalo,
Dusty

 

[Richard Lackey]

I agree with Kaya, you will need more disk space, the faster your RAID the better. If you are doing all this on your own using one machine including the 3d rendering and compositing, this could take you forever.

It's amazing to me that this is possible. I can hardly believe we live and work in a world where one person with one machine can (if they are crazy enough and have enough time) do all this at 10-bit 2K.

This really is a Revolution in film making.

I wish you the best of luck and I respect your ambitious endeavour in finishing this film to the highest standard you can like this.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Delete files...

Delete files...

you will need more disk space,

If you are on a tight budget, you can convert your fallback backup frames to 2K JPG, and cross your fingers. At least it will give you "something" to fall back on. Try to delete any frames you do not need, you can save tens of thousads of dollars in hard drives if you keep the ratio of used to unused frames down.

The throughput speed is a big issue, get out your footage and try to edit together five minutes, like for a trailer and use a stop watch to log the time everything takes. I have been doing that and working on the slowest parts of my workflow to get the biggest return.

If you figure it will take you three years to finish, and don't discount the time to make a good sound track, you might look to see where you can trim resolution and or other things to cut the time down. Several cheep computers in parallel can sometimes do more work than one expensive computer.

 

[amrrahmy]

using 3d max would be a big mistake(especially if u don't already have it and r going to buy it, it's not for cgi work, it's the weakest spot about 3d max), besides something expensive like maya, there are excellent cheap programs (not sure exactly about prices 400-600$) for photo realistic cgi. and they come with simple user friendly interfaces, so u can work instantly.

u don't need 8 gigs of ram(go for 4), instead if u were planing on buying an apple cinema display or an hd monitor, get the hp/30 bit monitor instead.


there is no difference in image quality between video cards.

 

[Dustin Cross]

For storage get a Highpoint Rocketraid raid 5 card, an 8 drive external SATA case, and 10 1TB samsung drives.

Card - $250
Case - $600
drives - $170 ea ($1700)

Totals about $2600 and you have 7TB of fast protected raid 5, plus two spare drives. 7TB should be enough. If you need more and have the budget for it Highpoint has cards you can go up to 32TB of storage. You just have to buy more drives and get Port Multiplier cases.

I have been using Highpoint raid 5 cards for years. They are great.


Mahalo,
Dusty

 

[Scott Mason]

I would not recommend using the proxies. If you are doing cuts only and are patient they are fine, but once you add effects, speed changes, multiple layers, FCP will not be your friend. Bite the bullet and render everything to prorez first . FCP loves this workflow and we get very few crashes this way. Editing the proxies and sometimes FCP just vanishes when you ask it to render. If you really want speed, just render low rez prorez, this will render fast then use crimson or something like it to online.

But, I suggest rendering 2k prorez at best quality, edit away and you don't need to conform in the end which can sometimes be a bear. If you use crimson in the end you can send your cuts to redcine and render out the dpx files in 4k or 2k depending, but 95% of all filmouts are done in 2k. 4k is on the rise, but the hardware to preview the 4k is not there so most film out places use 2k. That does not mean 4k is not done, just not as often.

P.S. if you use the crimson workflow I would render 1080, 720, or 480 files depending on the speed of your system since they are only offline. We always use 1080, but we use an octicore.

Good luck, the film out we just did was amazing. Red is definitely on the books for commercial producers in our neighborhood.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

"proxies"?

"proxies"?

I would not recommend using the proxies. If you are doing cuts only and are patient they are fine, but once you add effects, speed changes, multiple layers...

The way I use "proxy" resolution files is to make the 4K frames smaller so that all of the frames shot can be available for for "random access" from the harddrive, this lets the program play back edits "instantly" (doing a sound re-mix is not required for viewing edit changes, the sound re-mix takes some time.)

When you get into shots that are not straight cut, you treat them as "opticals" like you would in film, and they become a new "shot" for the edit list with their own "proxy" frames, the real 4K frames can be in a parallel folder system, or on removable disks.

In this way there is no "conform" after editing in the normal sence of the word, you just select the resolution level of the frames already in parallel folders in the project structure, aside from any bugs there may be, the system is intergrated, open, and "fool proof".

It is open in the sence that all the audio and image frames are in folders that you can access at any time and work on with any program, then you just "update" the "proxy" resolution frame "copies" to see the results with the Pick and View commands.

When things look good, you make a full audio mix to WAV, then aggregate the 720x480p "proxy" resolution frames then use VirtualDub (tm) to make an uncompressed AVI to look at on a fast computer. The uncompressed AVI looks much better than the MPEG2 DVD file made from it. You can make a 1920x1080p uncompressed AVI, I guess, for checking, or a 2K one(?), but I do not have a computer fast enough to play back uncompressed 2K AVI files right now, but there should not be any software limits in making things like that from my system's point of view.

On the subject of monitors for grading, LCD monitors exibit directional changes as you move your head around, purple dark areas, and blown out highlights, a low cost used 2048x1536 CRT monitor like a LaCie electron 22 blue III, does not have those problems, costs less than $150 maybe, and has color desaturation close to movie film print stock.

Movie film does not match any monitor close enough to justify spending thousands of dollars when you are on a tight budget.

With regard to the 10bit vs. 8bit video card, if you dither a 4K image to an 8 bit "2K" monitor the apparent color depth will be about 10 bits since the monitor will blur four pixels together in your eye giving you about two more bits. This only works for uncompressed images. The film grain in film scans does dithering automaticly unless the uncompressed film scans are "de-grained". Dither does add a small amount of noise, but for grading I cannot see that that should be a problem for someone who is on a tight budget, even 1K images are usable for grading. The grading changes you might see from 10bits to 8bits video would be so small as to be much less than the errors you will later see on the filmout, even 6 bits dithered would be finer than the filmout to match for all colors, LUT or not.

I would recomment saving the money from the high end hardware and software and putting it into hiring good musicians and a Composer if you cannot find one who will work on speculation. A good sound track can be more important than just about any other single thing you can do for your film look at "American Graffiti (1973)" or "Koyaanisqatsi (1982)".

Having good sound is why I developed my feature film editing system (to replace needing many more 35mm mag film transports), doing the full DI came later since it was just required to be able to store the 2K or 4K+ frames in parallel folders to the "proxy" frames used for the 24fps sync playback used in editing.

George Lucas is quoted as saying "Sound is 50 percent of the moviegoing experience." ...

http://money.mytopix.com/george_lucas/

 

[fatmonichi]

Thanks alot guys... I love how much you can learn from these forums. Once upon a time you would have to spend countless money and learn from you mistakes....

Much apprciated. Any more suggestions will be most helpful