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Editing a music video for pace

DJ Persino

DJ Persino

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I don't know if editing questions belong here.

I am editing my first music video and was wondering how much continuity between the pace of the music and the pace of your cuts is taken in consideration. I want the video to stand on its own without the music, but at the same time I don't want the music to fight the picture. I was gonna 1st edit and create a pace of the images without synchronizing the music. Then add the music and see what needs to be added, replaced, or remove in the areas that are not fighting the music without sacrificing the style and pace of the video as a stand alone.

Just trying to see if I can find any insight from someone with more experience in cutting a music video that has a story. Do you typically edit the picture without the sound of the music first or do you use the sound of the music to inspire your pace of your video?

Thanks all.
 
I've actually take my first pass on some edits by making completely random cuts across the whole piece. I know there's great temptation to cut on a beat and sometimes it can work, but I like the extra level of interest achieved by having visual cuts push into an emotional place beyond the music. Here's the piece I did with the random cuts. I'd say about 60 percent of what stayed in the final edit were made in that first random pass. I then adjusted the cuts that were too weird to get to the final product.

 
Music will not adapt itself to the edit.

Essential component of the edit is the rhythm. If you are editing a music video that rhythm is set by the music. Your edit should dance to the music.
 
There's the exact opposite view point. No disrespect but, I still don't agree, the guy who taught me is one of the most nominated and decorated music video directors alive. I do agree that the edit should dance, just not necessarily exactly with the music. Try both and see what you like better. Have fun.


Hrvoje Simic said:
Music will not adapt itself to the edit.

Essential component of the edit is the rhythm. If you are editing a music video that rhythm is set by the music. Your edit should dance to the music.
Click to expand...

Another example of the same technique.

 
Rules, especially in art, are made to be broken. However, you should always have a good reason for breaking the rule. So if you don't feel like making the edit dance with the music, then the story or theme of the song should support the stylistic choice to not cut exactly with the music. If the song lends itself to following the rules then you should probably cut to the music.
 
Dancing with the music does not mean that cuts must be in lock step or on the beat. It doesn't have to be a march. It can be jazz, calypso or fusion.

Listen to Nat King Cole sing any tune, then compare it to someone else, paying particular attention to his phrasing and where he falls in relation to the beat. His time is absolutely flawless, but not where you might expect. His phrasing expands and contracts time but is always firmly rooted in the established time. Sing along with him and see if all of your phrases begin and end with his instinctively. I can bet you they won't. That is neither good nor bad, but it should become apparent rather quickly how he was different. If he were a MLB Pitcher he would have a killer off speed pitch and strike you out every time. Sing with him, then tell us how many times did you swing early? :)

Listen to a dozen renditions of My Funny Valentine and compare phrasing. The music is standard yet every performer tries to do it in their own voice, with their own unique interpretation.

http://youtu.be/M51UqyWpYko
http://youtu.be/5tpLFOOHHS0
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEB00C9C44553D9AB

I always cut to the track but seldom on the beats. I try to make a rhythmic composition with my cuts, sound FX and dialogue that play like another member of the rhythm section. To that end it can be necessary to occasionally mute the track, to A-B them and develop independent ideas then hear how they work together.

Every scene is musical and rhythmic, whether it is in a music video or not and whether it has a soundtrack or not. As the Editor, you are both Composer and Conductor of an enormous orchestra full of wonderful textures comprised of many arts. Play!

It is how I know when any edit it done; when it has found it's voice, it's song. I cut with my ears first, eyes second. I don't know how that fits with anyone's rules, it's just the way I work. Maybe it will work for you.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
Dancing with the music does not mean that cuts must be in lock step or on the beat. It doesn't have to be a march. It can be jazz, calypso or fusion.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Scott Crawley said:
It is how I know when any edit it done; when it has found it's voice, it's song. I cut with my ears first, eyes second. I don't know how that fits with anyone's rules, it's just the way I work.
Click to expand...

Many work with this feel.
Sense of rhythm is essential.

People interested in professional editing can test a part of their editing potential through the ability to discern and follow various beats. If that ability is poor, edit suite within professional realm is not their optimal working place.
 
Polyrhythm. Check it out.

Defined, with example: https://youtu.be/mn4spSM5RF4

4 over 7... now we're talking: https://youtu.be/2DQx58axEns

Can your edits do this?
https://youtu.be/Rqdha2x18l4

How 'bout this?
https://youtu.be/y8FIVkg6q5g

Against a metronome... He's not on the beat much, but FUCK is he in time! The MONSTER Chris Coleman:
https://youtu.be/HO9ZgqIvgrA
check out :24 when he flips time upside down!
or :44, upside down and subdivided by 4


So... cutting on the beat? OH HELL NO!


... but you gotta know where it is.
 
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DJ Persino said:
… I want the video to stand on its own without the music, but at the same time I don't want the music to fight the picture. …
Click to expand...

I certainly believe that every editor is an artist in his/her own rights, so there are as many answers as editors, perhaps more. Let me share my observation about my work.

The material and the music will have a sweet spot, and you have to find it. But to say the images need to work without the music and similar stuff, might lead only to a stop.

In any art I have done so far over the decades, there is one thing that I noticed: after you (personally/emotionally/etc) really have taken in all the material, and feel it, breath it, there is a point where the "inner logic" (as I call it) of the material shines through. From that point on, the content provides a self-dynamic, and you as an artist serve it. Only in that way, the result can grow bigger than the artist is by itself for that moment.

It is an adventure, and exploration and contains perhaps desperate moments, but on the end you feel it - when it connects with you completely, and you as an artist have grown again. You will know it. But rules -independent from the content- will not lead to that; Never has for me.

Take your time and enjoy. You will get the best out of it, I feel that you care, dive in as deep as you can.
 
I just heard this radio segment by Studio 360 on NPR. It is all very musically edited. It is not just the bits that include music but every line is rhythmically melodic. The program is like a song.

It isn't very long, but good ear training.

Discovering An Imaginary Soul Star
http://www.studio360.org/story/discovering-an-imaginary-soul-star-mingering-mike/

What do you think? Is the editing beautiful?
 
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This is awesome stuff guys , Iam gonna take time tonight to sit down and intake it all. Truly appreciate the input. My goal in this is to create a video that is able to stand on its own, but it also dances with the music. At certain points , I must give into the music to a certain degree, as quick cuts during a elongated endnote just doesnt look right.
 
DJ Persino said:
My goal in this is to create a video that is able to stand on its own, but it also dances with the music.
Click to expand...

It cannot dance "with" the music, it can only dance to the music. If it stands on its own it is not dancing to the music. If it's not dancing to the music, music is glued on and secondary. If music is secondary you are not editing a music video, but a video with music in it.

DJ Persino said:
At certain points , I must give into the music to a certain degree, as quick cuts during a elongated endnote just doesnt look right.
Click to expand...

It is important to make a distinction between rhythm and tempo.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
It cannot dance "with" the music, it can only dance to the music. If it stands on its own it is not dancing to the music. If it's not dancing to the music, music is glued on and secondary. If music is secondary you are not editing a music video, but a video with music in it.
Click to expand...

I'm going to differ with you on this. A movement in a concerto is an integral part of the whole but can stand on it's own. Each part in a section should stand on it's own, each complete melodies in their own right but together they make harmony. Why wouldn't the rhythm of the video edit not be able to play equally well with the music as well as on it's own?

If you took the tune Thriller out of the music video you would still have a complete and (Dare I say thrilling) film in it's own right.

 
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there is no real rules about it, i believe sticking to the beat on the cut is the only real rule id follow, but hey like making a song... how do you know a million dollar song from the rest? Pitbull can rap to completely cheap as rhymes but everyone in dance and pop wants to make a FT... its all on taste, marketing and exposure, editing will be logical to the story... my 2cts.
 
I met an 'editor' a couple of months ago who didn't know to look for peaks in the audio waveform for hints on cutting points. But all of his work is rubbish because all good editors understand rhythm. Even when there's no music there.

If it's a good cut, the sight/sound combo will 'feel' good. If it doesn't it will jar. If you can't see that then you shouldn't be editing.
The cutting point doesn't have to be a beat. It can be a word, a phrase, a crashing guitar chord, an accent, or a movement of camera and/or talent. Or it could be a dissolve in the middle of a sweeping pad (although personally I'm not a fan of dissolves).

Even if you want to cut on the beats you can vary that, too. For funk the ONE is a good place to cut. For rock n roll TWO and FOUR can be better. Reggae likes TWO and FOUR as well, but it likes THREE more. You don't have to cut on the bar, or every bar. I've seen some great music videos with no cuts at all.

It helps if you're already a musician. Or at least a drummer :)
And the best place to put the talent is in front of the lens.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
I'm going to differ with you on this. A movement in a concerto is an integral part of the whole but can stand on it's own. Each part in a section should stand on it's own, each complete melodies in their own right but together they make harmony. Why wouldn't the rhythm of the video edit not be able to play equally well with the music as well as on it's own?
Click to expand...

Clarification: rhythm of the video can "stand on its own" if taken out of the music video but it has to be complementary to music. It cannot have its own independent rhythm and fit music in the same time because two rhythms clash. My comment was related to the notion of video having its own unrelated rhythm taking over the focus from music.

A musician, DJ or a dancer, once shown editing basics, would instinctively edit shots in a rhythm fitting to the music.
Other video editing factors would probably vary but rhythm would likely be fitting.

Cutting exactly to the beat is too basic and works in fewer cases.

Scott Crawley said:
If you took the tune Thriller out of the music video you would still have a complete and (Dare I say thrilling) film in it's own right.

Click to expand...

When the song starts edit is based on the rhythm of the song. Cuts dance to the music.

Michael Jackson had highly developed sensibility to rhythm in both music and dance and I'm pretty sure he would never let the video be in clash with the music. It would have hurt his eyes and instinctively feel wrong in the gut.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
Clarification: rhythm of the video can "stand on its own" if taken out of the music video but it has to be complementary to music. It cannot have it's own rhythm and fit music in the same time because two rhythms clash.

A musician, DJ or a dancer, once shown editing basics, would instinctively edit shots in a rhythm fitting to the music.
Other video editing factors would probably vary but rhythm would likely be fitting.

Cutting exactly to the beat is too basic and works in fewer cases.



When the song starts edit is based on the rhythm of the song. Cuts dance to the music.

Michael Jackson had highly developed sensibility to rhythm and I'm pretty sure he would never let the video be in clash with the music. It would have hurt his eyes and instinctively feel wrong in the gut.
Click to expand...

Point taken. We are in harmony. :)

I will refer you back to my polyrhythm examples. I think we would agree that some seem to clash rhythmically, and yet they are very much complimentary. To me that contrast is what makes them interesting. The same might be said of many dissonances, but we are wandering into an area of taste and style.

I have to admit that on my last project I cut on the beat more than usual. I'd like to be able to say I was doing it for emphasis and that is probably true, but it may also be because I have a rebel streak in me. I have a tendency to rebel against all dogma, even my own. ;-)
 
hmm,

.... as with most editing, audio is more important than the images, hence drive 'em ... if it´s a music video, it shall serve the musical art in either harmony or contrast ... not stand so much on it´s own and compete for attention ... it´s a marriage. with the cut being the servant. invisible. The images enhancing, supporting the content of the track.

sticking to a rhythmic grid of sorts always helps. can be the main beat. must not ... if it´s clean "on the beat - all the time", it becomes visible and tends to be boring - but much better than random "fancy cutting".

love Mr. Crawleys remarks ... :)

Polyrhythm is the magic.
mastery. the end game.

hehe ... ;-))

enjoy, it´s fun to dance

p.s.:
years ago, i did this little tool to explore things (currently not maintained) ... it provides a grid and an idea on some numbers, cuts, lengths and so on ... mix at will.
http://automatic-timeline.com/bpm_beat_mapping
 
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