Earth rape LIVE

[Jay Gannon]

Really ? How did man get into space then ?



Can you blame them ?



You base this on...

What has the space program got to do with an industrial accident that came about due to combined mechanical and human error?

Yes I can blame them I have no time for people who talk about things that they have no experience in as if they were 50 year veterans of the industry they are criticizing.

I base it on the fact that the US government is not an oil drilling company who deals with well leaks and malfunctions on a monthly basis, and thus is coming into the situation blind and the fact that the Russians did nuke wells in the 80's
http://www.livescience.com/technology/russia-nuke-gulf-oil-well-100512.html

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

What has the space program got to do with an industrial accident that came about due to combined mechanical and human error?

This:

1. You cant plan for something that has never happened before.

I do realize that you are trying to reason how the outcome of an accident cannot be planned, however that is not an excuse for displayed dealings with this situation. Just the fact of not having backup plan(s) for operations of this magnitude of environment risk is ludicrous.

Cameron can play with deep sea subs and tools - while multi billion dollar business can't afford to have tools and crews ready for situations like this ? Really ?

Yes I can blame them I have no time for people who talk about things that they have no experience in as if they were 50 year veterans of the industry they are criticizing.

People who do have experience have failed badly - multiple times. Sorry, but I don't see anyone yanking your time here.

I base it on the fact that the US government is not an oil drilling company who deals with well leaks and malfunctions on a monthly basis, and thus is coming into the situation blind and the fact that the Russians did nuke wells in the 80's
http://www.livescience.com/technology/russia-nuke-gulf-oil-well-100512.html

Folks who can stop the leak don't necessarily have to be in oil drilling business, especially if known solutions for this are minimal. If my plumber has shown to be incompetent and my house is rapidly flooding with shit I'm not going to wait for him to smarten up, it doesn't matter if he caused the flood in the first place, or if he has the best gear.

In situations like this waiting and depending strictly on a few known solutions is a roulette where loss = global catastrophe.

 

[Robert Frank]

It's incomprehensible that the oil companies are not required to have specific plans for emergencies such as this before they are allowed to drill.

A project with potential for massive environmental damage isn't regulated by some safety agency?

You can't build anything where I am without incredible review for fire, structural, health and safety violations. Alarms, sprinklers, electrical breakers, sewage systems, escape routes and so on are the norm. This is for a simple building.

Can you picture the following exchange at an approval meeting for a drilling platform?

"So, if your blow-out prevention fails, what is your plan to stop a well from polluting the water"?

"Uh, we don't have one". "No wait, we have the junk shot and top kill"

"What do they do?"

"Well, the junk shot is where we put golf ball and other crap in the pipe. Top kill is when we pump more oil, drilling oil into the pipe"

"Your kidding right?"

"No"

"OK, approved".

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

I find it ironic that the sole reason that this platform was located in such deep water was because of environmental concerns about shallow water drilling, when in fact the depth and temperature of the water is the main reason that this leak can not be plugged.

 

[Jay Gannon]

It's incomprehensible that the oil companies are not required to have specific plans for emergencies such as this before they are allowed to drill.

A project with potential for massive environmental damage isn't regulated by some safety agency?

You can't build anything where I am without incredible review for fire, structural, health and safety violations. Alarms, sprinklers, electrical breakers, sewage systems, escape routes and so on are the norm. This is for a simple building.

Can you picture the following exchange at an approval meeting for a drilling platform?

"So, if your blow-out prevention fails, what is your plan to stop a well from polluting the water"?

"Uh, we don't have one". "No wait, we have the junk shot and top kill"

"What do they do?"

"Well, the junk shot is where we put golf ball and other crap in the pipe. Top kill is when we pump more oil, drilling oil into the pipe"

"Your kidding right?"

"No"

"OK, approved".

Thats deregulation for ya. Or self regulation, same thing.

 

[JoshBertrand]

Here's some pictures of some of the effects so far if you aren't depressed enough already.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/05/oil_reaches_louisiana_shores.html

 

[Grinner Hester]

I find it ironic that the sole reason that this platform was located in such deep water was because of environmental concerns about shallow water drilling, when in fact the depth and temperature of the water is the main reason that this leak can not be plugged.

It is ironic but they skipped the third safty valve and drilled far beyond licensed to.
While it can't be plugged (obviously) it could be imploded and sealed permanantly in an instant. That's the sick part of this whole thing to me. Money is more valuable to them and them and our government than life.
We'll see how profitable sitting on it and band aiding it is for em when they get the clean up bill.
Till then...:banghead:
I assume none of us will ever stop at a BP gas station again. If any of us do, I assume BP has no problem with our leaving the pump on when we leave.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

Money is more valuable to them and them and our government than life.

I keep hearing people say that BP is being greedy and doing what they're doing for the money. This month long operation has already cost them $1B, and will cost them several more by the time it's over. BP market value has dropped over 25%, which amounts to tens of billions, and the federal government is going to fine them $3400 per barrel leaked. It is in every single persons best interest, from the people at BP, to the federal government, as well every other oil company (who wants to keep deep sea drilling), to stop this leak and minimize the damage.

And yes, it is comical when people who know nothing are like "why don't we just blow it up" or comes up with an equally uneducated solution to the problem. Regarding the implosion idea that keeps getting spread around, if it fails, then there will now be a huge crater leaking 10 times as much oil (as opposed to a 20 inch hole), and it won't be able to be stopped at all, possibly even with a relief well. And for a nuclear bomb 40 miles off the coast of LA, do I need to elaborate?

The BOP failing was a freak accident. It's a 450 ton, 40 ft tall device that has never failed in it's history. Say what you will, but you can not plan for every freak accident. In fact, the BOP is a solution to freak accidents, so looking at the probability of this happening, it's incredibly small (hence this being the first time its ever happened).

The fact is oil exploration is incredibly expensive and risky, so oil companies make huge profits. That's economics. Just gotta keep in mind that they take these risks because we need oil. Any oil that we don't retrieve domestically is just going to come from Iran or Venezuela instead.

Literally the smartest people in the world are working on this. If they can't stop it yet, then no one can (especially not the federal government who can't, well, do anything right).

Let's stop letting emotions (like seeing a bird covered in oil) get in the way of thinking about this objectively. It was an accident, whether due to lax oversight or not, it doesn't matter. We need oil for the foreseeable future, so we need to learn from this, make deep sea drilling safer, and invest more heavily in alternative fuels. For me personally, I think it's irrational to just jump to outlawing deep sea drilling (which provides billions in revenue for the gov't through leases and taxes) and divert that revenue to middle eastern countries who price gouge because they're run by OPEC (a price fixing oligopoly).

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Nice post, Alex. Very considerate.

To oil drilling companies.

I keep hearing people say that BP is being greedy and doing what they're doing for the money. This month long operation has already cost them $1B, and will cost them several more by the time it's over. BP market value has dropped over 25%, which amounts to tens of billions, and the federal government is going to fine them $3400 per barrel leaked. It is in every single persons best interest, from the people at BP, to the federal government, as well every other oil company (who wants to keep deep sea drilling), to stop this leak and minimize the damage.

Being forced to pay to reduce the consequences of the world catastrophe you caused and paying for a safe measure in the start as a precaution are not the same thing, Alex.

BP revenue for Q1 2010 is $73 Billion.
$272 Billion for 12 months.

And yes, it is comical when people who know nothing are like "why don't we just blow it up" or comes up with an equally uneducated solution to the problem. Regarding the implosion idea that keeps getting spread around, if it fails, then there will now be a huge crater leaking 10 times as much oil (as opposed to a 20 inch hole), and it won't be able to be stopped at all, possibly even with a relief well.

There is not just one type of implosion. Detonations can be precisely calculated and directed. With many small directed detonations on different places you can shape the way ground collapses. With enough soil depth, blast combination can create natural soil cork over the hole. To create a huge crater by accident with today's knowledge of controlled detonations and soil research equipment you'd have to be an idiot.

Besides that, there are materials which quickly expand/thicken which could be used in different solutions. All this is obviously a gross oversimplification. Point being, various solutions and studies should have been ready long time ago.

The BOP failing was a freak accident. It's a 450 ton, 40 ft tall device that has never failed in it's history. Say what you will, but you can not plan for every freak accident. In fact, the BOP is a solution to freak accidents, so looking at the probability of this happening, it's incredibly small (hence this being the first time its ever happened).

You don't have to plan for any freak accident.
Just know in advance how to stop an oil leak on the ocean floor and have all the necessary equipment for it ready 24/7.
If you are in business which presents the most dangerous environmental threat to the planet and you make $272 Billion per year, that is.

The fact is oil exploration is incredibly expensive and risky, so oil companies make huge profits. That's economics. Just gotta keep in mind that they take these risks because we need oil. Any oil that we don't retrieve domestically is just going to come from Iran or Venezuela instead.

Companies take risks because we need oil ? Interesting logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning


I'd also check the premise "we need oil".

Literally the smartest people in the world are working on this. If they can't stop it yet, then no one can (especially not the federal government who can't, well, do anything right).

"Smartest people in the world" tried to shove crap into a blown high pressure valve, and plan to drill another highly polluting leak to stop the first highly polluting leak. After one month and with $73 Billion from Q1.

Wanna buy a bridge, Alex ?

Let's stop letting emotions (like seeing a bird covered in oil) get in the way of thinking about this objectively.

I'd ponder over that statement a bit.


Then a bit more.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Suggestions for potential solutions can be sent @:


http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doc/2931/546759/

&

http://www.floridagulfresponse.com/go/site/3059/





I sent a couple:

1. ROV's

Multiple, hole diameter wide remote controlled units which can enter the hole.

- tampon-like form, spiral surface
- hollow in the middle so they can enter the hole while resisting oil stream pressure - oil goes through them
- thin adaptable legs on the side (or at the back) to fit and hold against hole walls - thin to resist oil stream pressure
- two versions:
a) with instant spreading agent capsules - activated upon reached depth of the hole
b) with multiple inner iris systems - which close the hollow middle upon reached targeted depth of the hole


2. Hole capsules

Small, injected through thin pipe, multiple units

- highly expanding foam type agent activation - resistant to oil corrosion
- another agent inside used for foam thickening

3. Detonations

Multiple small directed explosions

Types:

a) outside the hole - going down the soil
b) inside the hole

- detonations in zig zag patterns to allow planned soil collapsing over the hole
- added soil thickening agent


4. Giant weight based cork

- scan the surface of the sea bed around the spill
- make a cast
- make multiple circular barriers in the shape fitting the sea bed
- fix this onto large thick metal surface
- add expanding foam capsules across the whole surface between barriers - remote activated (foam agent
resistant to oil corrosion)
- make a huge metal cage based cylinder structure
- strengthen the structure with cross beams
- cover the surface of the metal cage with wire net large enough for water to go through,
small enough to prevent for targeted material to go through
- fix the barrier equipped metal surface to the bottom of the cage structure
- add support stilts to the whole structure
- lower the whole cage structure on the sea bed over the hole
- pump fast thickening concrete (or another proper material) into the cage structure
- after it's filled with material and heavy enough remove the stilts
- activate expanding agent capsules between barriers on the bottom of the structure so they can fill and block any empty space left


5. Fast structures on the sea bed

- use same cage principle to make concrete blocks on the sea bed with additional steel joints on the top
- make multiple blocks around the hole
- design next metal structures fitting the joints on the blocks
- build metal structures above on the surface and lower them onto sea bed structure
- use the leverage of surrounding concrete blocks to hold the hole closing solutions






Best of luck,


Hrvoje

I'm not sure whether this can work. It may. This is not my domain. That's irrelevant right now.



There are a lot of smart folks over here.


Do your part.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

Hrvoje(what does this name mean, and what culture is it from...my guess is croatian or serbian)simic, you are an awesome being. you can have dinner and a place to crash in my house anytime.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

I keep hearing people say that BP is being greedy and doing what they're doing for the money. This month long operation has already cost them $1B, and will cost them several more by the time it's over. BP market value has dropped over 25%, which amounts to tens of billions, and the federal government is going to fine them $3400 per barrel leaked. It is in every single persons best interest, from the people at BP, to the federal government, as well every other oil company (who wants to keep deep sea drilling), to stop this leak and minimize the damage.

And yes, it is comical when people who know nothing are like "why don't we just blow it up" or comes up with an equally uneducated solution to the problem. Regarding the implosion idea that keeps getting spread around, if it fails, then there will now be a huge crater leaking 10 times as much oil (as opposed to a 20 inch hole), and it won't be able to be stopped at all, possibly even with a relief well. And for a nuclear bomb 40 miles off the coast of LA, do I need to elaborate?

The BOP failing was a freak accident. It's a 450 ton, 40 ft tall device that has never failed in it's history. Say what you will, but you can not plan for every freak accident. In fact, the BOP is a solution to freak accidents, so looking at the probability of this happening, it's incredibly small (hence this being the first time its ever happened).

The fact is oil exploration is incredibly expensive and risky, so oil companies make huge profits. That's economics. Just gotta keep in mind that they take these risks because we need oil. Any oil that we don't retrieve domestically is just going to come from Iran or Venezuela instead.

Literally the smartest people in the world are working on this. If they can't stop it yet, then no one can (especially not the federal government who can't, well, do anything right).

Let's stop letting emotions (like seeing a bird covered in oil) get in the way of thinking about this objectively. It was an accident, whether due to lax oversight or not, it doesn't matter. We need oil for the foreseeable future, so we need to learn from this, make deep sea drilling safer, and invest more heavily in alternative fuels. For me personally, I think it's irrational to just jump to outlawing deep sea drilling (which provides billions in revenue for the gov't through leases and taxes) and divert that revenue to middle eastern countries who price gouge because they're run by OPEC (a price fixing oligopoly).

This is nonsense. You have no idea about the way the geopolitical system of this planet really works. You also clearly have no idea about BP's track record, or any other oil company for that matter, in regards to both environmental destruction, AND limiting the use of alternative technology.
Ever wonder why L.A. has no subway system?

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

OH really Alex?... spin your magic spin on this bullshit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/18/corexit-bp-using-dispersa_n_580799.html

WHy on God's earth are people not going postal over the fact BP tried to sweep this spill under the rug by trying to keep the spill deep... so it wouldnt ruin the beaches... are you effin kidding me?

COREXIT is BANNED IN THE FUCKING UK!!! but hey its the stupid US, and Florida tourism is obviously more important that killing fucking dolphins and countless sea and bird life and who knows what else.?

watch these and get REALLY PISSED OFF. There are TONS OF WAYS TO CAPTURE THIS OIL... COREEXIT is the fucking WORST solution!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2fldJnaNp0

I dont necessairly buy the $ reasons behind it... but again, BP a british company is usng a dispersant that is BANNED IN THE UK!!! WTF??!!

 

[Jay Gannon]

BP contrary to its name is actually majority US owned.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

This is nonsense. You have no idea about the way the geopolitical system of this planet really works. You also clearly have no idea about BP's track record, or any other oil company for that matter, in regards to both environmental destruction,

I'd love know more about this geopolitical system you speak of. Please enlighten.

And yes, I'm very familiar with BP's track record. It's not very good. But all the top scientists from the major oil companies and government have formed a brain trust to figure the problem out. It's not just BP. They're just executing it and footing the bill.

AND limiting the use of alternative technology.

I'd love to know more. I'm all for alternative energy and think oil is not taxed nearly enough.

Ever wonder why L.A. has no subway system?

I'm already aware. Not sure what this has to do with anything.

The ironic part is that GM was part of the group of companies that bought up the mass transit system in the 30's to turn LA into a personal transportation town. Our current and previous government, which in my opinion is responsible for the current predicament, bailed out GM during the recent financial crisis.

OH really Alex?... spin your magic spin on this bullshit.

WHy on God's earth are people not going postal over the fact BP tried to sweep this spill under the rug by trying to keep the spill deep... so it wouldnt ruin the beaches... are you effin kidding me?

Actually my favorite conspiracy theory is that BP wants to cap the well instead of cement it so they can capture the oil and resell it.

Of course that's crazy too because the well is almost worthless, it's the reservoir that's valuable, and BP's already got a lease on it.

COREXIT is BANNED IN THE FUCKING UK!!! but hey its the stupid US, and Florida tourism is obviously more important that killing fucking dolphins and countless sea and bird life and who knows what else.?

The EPA told them to stop using it, but BP insisted. So they gave BP a slap on the wrist and moved on. So much for government oversight...

COREEXIT is the fucking WORST solution!.

I can think of worse.

IMO there are certain industries that need more oversight than others, especially when such grave environment disasters can occur. Deep sea drilling is one of them. Since we live in a capitalistic country, companies do what they need to do to appease shareholders...and that's pretty much it. The gov't needs to foster this environment, UNTIL there's a threat to public welfare. The gov't should be running the cleanup (threat to public and environmental welfare) and BP should be responsible for plugging the hole. I think the gov't has really dropped the ball, and BP is doing what they can to stop the leak. It's truly in their best interest.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I'd love know more about this geopolitical system you speak of. Please enlighten.

This is not the time or place for enlightening anyone about the geopolitical system. There are plenty of places elsewhere for researching that.

 

[Michael McVicar]

James Cameron meeting with Feds

James Cameron meeting with Feds

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/01/AR2010060102677.html

• Will we now have a 3D live feed?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

1. You cant plan for something that has never happened before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9A36A3GTcY

 

[Joe G.]

Mindless knee jerk defenses here are laughable (yet sad):

"1. You cant plan for something that has never happened before."

A pipe never leaked oil into the sea before?

This is what de-regulation is about. Playing Russian roulette with other people's livelihoods. Other people's health. Other people's food supplies. No accountability. No common sense preparations. No sweat (unless you fuck up half the nation's ecosystems, then you need to appear as if you care).

BP, We Care, Ever So Much, Really

How much of the planet do you need to destroy before you are led away in handcuffs? Seriously?

 

[I Bloom]

3. Unfortunately as much as I hate to admit it BP is the only group that is equipped to deal with this. The only thing that the government could feasibly do would be to take the Russians approach to similar incidents and detonate a nuclear device on top of the well... No I'm not joking thats how they fix the situation when it happens in their waters.

It's not on top, it's planted in a J-tunnel deep in the sea floor away from the well, such that the pressure of the explosion will cause the well to be choked off and closed. I'm in favor of this because I think the overall environmental impact could be much less than allowing the flow to continue.

IBloom