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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

E2E Production workflow diagram

Dear David

1- what is the basic Red digital media option I need in order to obtain the best quality (S35mm 2540p RAW Frame Rate) whit my red one camera?

2- Explain me why. Im so beginner in those matters

3- I can Buy cheapper digital media option whit others party or I have to buy Red One (Red One be expecial configuration so no others can sell you those spec?

Regards

Edgar
 
laboprod said:
...go Blender it comes free with all the options :-))
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Yeah well that's one area where you definitely get what you pay for.

P.S. I don't believe Maya Unlimited has liquid sim either. It has "fluid sim" which is a different beast altogether.
 
Maya will render 4K no problem, so will all the others, unless I am misunderstanding you. You could render at 64K if you had the processing power and time, the output is entirely resolution independent.

Hmm, have to edit my post now. I'm an idiot. I just realised you were talking about price.
 
Your pricing numbers are very misleading. All desktop programs require a computer to host them, whereas systems products are sold turnkey. So while the cost of, say, Avid DS, really is about $100K, that includes the software, the host computer, monitoring, interfacing, and storage. Final Cut, on the other hand, is $1.3K for software only. You still need the host computer, monitoring, interfacing, and storage, making the true cost of a system competitive with your $100K DS more like $15-20K, not $1.3. Granted, that's cheaper than the Avid product, but it's not $1300. Same with Shake, Digital Fusion, Nuke, Combustion, and all the other desktop programs you're quoted pricing on. You also quote Assimilate Scratch based on the cost of a turnkey system, which would be fair if you quoted everything else the same way - and by the way, Scratch is a software product and is often purchased that way. If you want to do a fair cost comparison, add in the cost of the system to run the software only products on, and quote those systems with the same equipment the turnkey systems (i.e., all Avid products other than Media Composer Software Only, Autodesk systems products like Inferno, Smoke, Flame, and Lustre, all DaVinci products, and Baselight) have. The only area that has pricing quoted that reflects reality is the 3D software area, since none of these products are sold in turnkey systems. However, all of them do require host computers with proper graphics capabilities and monitoring, as well as significant storage in order to perform well.

If you want to make a pricing chart that's accurate, quote prices on all of these products that include the necessary hardware to run them on.
 
Hi David,

First of all... I'll be at SMPTE Australia this week. If you live in Sydney - would be great to meet you! Contact me offlist at lucas@assimilateinc.com so we can work it out.

I applaud your chart and the time you took to make it. Good stuff. I want to point out a few things that may help:

1) I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to share with the "Image I/O" thing. SCRATCH can support 8, 10, 12, and 16-bit files, and processes everything internally at 32-bit float.

2) As Mike also pointed out - the 90K number can be correct for a turnkey system, but SCRATCH is frequently sold as software only. And as modular software, a customer can purchase only those modules that are necessary for the task at hand. So... list/retail prices for SCRATCH can run from $5K at the minimum to $65K at the maximum. But also keep in mind that the "maximum" is something that very few people buy. It's sort of like buying a car with ALL the options. You almost never need all the options...

3) In your workflow chart, this is correct... if you're using any online/color system except for SCRATCH. With SCRATCH - REDCODE is supported natively, so the Online Ingest/Online Grading step is combined into one box. Load an EDL... conform to the original REDCODE files... and start grading. You do notate that with a "*" designation at the bottom of the chart... just wanted to highlight it as it is a huge workflow difference - especially with longform projects.

Cheers,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
I was also going to say that figure for Scratch was very configuration dependent, as well as location dependent. Our turnkey Scratch configured with 8TB storage and data subsystem for two streams of uncompressed 2K comes in at just over $200,000 here in South Africa but that includes a Panasonic 2K projector (which we are now swapping out for a Christie CP2000, and a 50" Plasma). We have now decided to go for BrightDrive 4K Fibre Channel to give us 4K in real time through Scratch, and I'm still waiting for that quote.

It's going to leave Baselight8 in the dust, and even with the 4K drive subsystem it will cost a whole lot less money.

I'll stop now, I'm get a bit excited when it comes to Scratch, almost as excited as with Red. The two of them together... phew, I'll stop now. I need to calm down a bit.
 
David

This is a cool graph but also a little misleading. It kinda encourages you to buy into the Red 4K hype. As you know I am a fan of acquiring 4K but finishing 2K or HD (and only doing a full 4K finish if your films gets bought by a major studio). In 3 years' time things may have changed, but for now 4K VFX work, etc is just stupid.

Firstly:

1. If you are integrating the 3D with your film and you're doing any kind of moving of the camera besides simple panning, you need to include a 3D tracker into your budget.

2. The whole budget thing is kinda crazy anyway. The major cost is ALWAYS human talent. For that reason, you should definitely look at whatever solution allows for "good enough" shots to be done at a reasonable. For me that means a good, responsive system, and being sensible and doing things at 2K or HD resolution.

I have a bunch of compositor / vfx producer friends in LA. Between them, they have worked on all of the major VFX blockbusters that came out this season. Every single one of them would burst out laughing if you told them to do the majority of their work at 4K. And they are working at big Hollywood effects houses with stratospheric budgets.

Personally, I think there is way too much 4K measurbating going on at Reduser and a lot of people trying to ride this stupid hype. The idea that a system (Flame, etc) is "inferior" because it can't render out at 4K and high bit depth (which is implied in your graph) is a total joke.

The key to all of these is workflow. I use After Effects with Magic Duck to do color correction all of the time, but I wouldn't seriously consider using it as my sole grading tool for a feature because of its inability to conform changes, lack of responsivity, etc. Unless every shot was VFX. Even then you'd want to pay a scripting programmer to set up a workflow that was similar to what current grading systems already give you. And you'd still need a bunch of $500+ per day working in AE to keep everything consistent from shot to shot.

4K Hub, let's be honest here, the fact that you're setting up a Scratch system in SA is really cool - last time I checked, we definitely needed more competition to keep the Sasani conglomerate on their toes - but the whole 4K thing is really a marketing ploy.

I'm sure you'll be able go and use it to sell idiot producers on using your system because 4K is the next stupid buzzword. But if you want to work with someone who knows what they're doing, you should instead sell yourselves on having talented colorists / finishers, a strong track record and a good price and workflow. Of course, Scratch has an excellent Red workflow - I would hype that up instead of the whole 4K thing if you want to be taken seriously.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
4K Hub, let's be honest here, the fact that you're setting up a Scratch system in SA is really cool - last time I checked, we definitely needed more competition to keep the Sasani conglomerate on their toes - but the whole 4K thing is really a marketing ploy.

I'm sure you'll be able go and use it to sell idiot producers on using your system because 4K is the next stupid buzzword. But if you want to work with someone who knows what they're doing, you should instead sell yourselves on having talented colorists / finishers, a strong track record and a good price and workflow. Of course, Scratch has an excellent Red workflow - I would hype that up instead of the whole 4K thing if you want to be taken seriously.
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Bruce, you are entitled to your opinion, and I also acknowledge your experience and the experiences of your industry contacts. I suppose some of us here assume that it goes without saying that talent in the end is what is going to make a great feature, commercial or whatever. However, this is also a technical forum and so it's no surprise that it's the tools that get the focus.

Sasani is big, they have Film Lab, Video Lab, MCC, ZSE... practically every big name in post in the country. We are a small no-name that is coming up behind them with a purely digital cinema focus, for 2K and up, that's specifically targeting productions that would normally be shot 35mm, be scanned to 2K for DI and either printed back to film or output to SD and HD for broadcast. We will be offering them a no-compromise 2K, 4K or even 4.5K solution from lens to digital cinema server, to HD or whatever format they need it in, and in S.A. we can do it cheaper than almost anywhere else, L.A. or London. What's stupid about that?

I am surprised that you don't assign more importance to the 4K workflow in discussion because more and more cinemas in North America and Europe are jumping on the 4K projection bandwagon. What would be stupid is to DI and finish a film at 2K to send out to cinemas for projection at 4K.
 
If I film with RED I want to finish in 4K, no question. I understand that VFX is not ready. That's a problem that will be solved...
I know one of the London FX houses has started to do everything 4K, they're showing off, but it has started to happen.
 
Ah man, I'm just trying to call things as I see them. I think it's wonderful that new pro-Red, digital finishing companies are starting up, and I don't mind if they use the "we are better, we do 4K" line to counter the FUD that the traditional finishing companies are going to throw at them to try to scare their clients away. I totally support you guys and think it's great that you're doing this. That said...

4K Hub said:
We will be offering them a no-compromise 2K, 4K or even 4.5K solution from lens to digital cinema server, to HD or whatever format they need it in, and in S.A. we can do it cheaper than almost anywhere else, L.A. or London.
Click to expand...

Your solution may offer no compromise on the technical side, but that isn't what's important. Let's be honest here - the quality of the finishing solution is ultimately dependent on human talent and machine responsiveness. You have said a lot about what resolution you are outputting at but very little about who your colorists, finishing experts, etc, are.

To me, the no-compromise solution is to work with an experienced, talented and communicative finishing team, even if they are working at 2K. The human talent should be the bulk of your costs. SA has some great colorists but very few people with experience finishing 4K, for example. If you are doing it a lot cheaper than LA or London, it is because you are cheaping out by not paying to bring in some experienced talent. I'm sure your team is great and can't wait to knock the stuffing out of the finishing houses around the globe but until they have stunned the world in a manner similar to Weta, you can't sell yourselves as no-compromise. And remember that Weta went to great pains to hire the best from around the world to get themselves going.

4K Hub said:
What's stupid about that?
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It's stupid to trade 4x the rendering, processing and storage requirements for a small return. I'd rather put the budget into something that needs it more.

Look, if the big boys of VFX are not doing everything at 4K right now it is because they are not quite there yet cost / benefit wise. They'd rather spend their render cycles / drive space / etc on more important things - better crowd simulations, better fluids, more render passes, more versions of a shot, etc.. Currently, people do the majority of their work at 2K and will only go to 4K for extreme problem shots.

4K Hub said:
I am surprised that you don't assign more importance to the 4K workflow in discussion because more and more cinemas in North America and Europe are jumping on the 4K projection bandwagon. What would be stupid is to DI and finish a film at 2K to send out to cinemas for projection at 4K.
Click to expand...

1. Wow, that'd be almost as stupid as showing a 35mm feature at an IMAX. Oh wait, they do that!

2. Personally I think a good 2K film finish such as Master and Commander will still look like it deserves its cinematography Oscar when projected at 4K. 2K digital projection often sucked for reasons besides resolving power - horrible screen door effect, bad color, etc. A good up-res of a 2K film to 4K will look smooth and good on a 4K projector.

3. Also, what kind of film? Studio? Indie? Do you have a distribution deal? How much is VFX and how much is just straight color? That is what should determine HD vs 2K vs 4K. I have seen 4K projection and prefer it. But there are a lot of cases where it just doesn't make sense yet.

Please show me one person on this forum advocating end-to-end 4K finishes for everyone that has actually DONE an end-to-end 4K finish.

I have done some stuff at 4K (recently, the teaser for Ocean's 13). And I (and my VFX friends) say it is probably not worth it yet.

Again, I'm really glad that you guys are doing this, just don't like the 4K emphasis over all of the other great things you should be pushing - great Scratch Red workflow, etc. Anyway, after this post I think I totally owe you guys many beers. I'll be in SA in September - will see if I can track you guys down.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Again, I'm really glad that you guys are doing this, just don't like the 4K emphasis over all of the other great things you should be pushing - great Scratch Red workflow, etc. Anyway, after this post I think I totally owe you guys many beers. I'll be in SA in September - will see if I can track you guys down.
Click to expand...

Beer always sounds good!

Experienced colourists and vfx artists are hard to come by in S.A., it's going to involve a lot of head hunting and wooing some top guys away from other facilities, not only in S.A. but elsewhere also. It's not going to be easy that's for sure, and it's a long road ahead. But it's not only capital that is needed, it's also at least 12 months running costs up front, and that includes those salaries.

A 4K E2E workflow is not only possible, it doesn't have to be that expensive either and it will always be capable of handling lower than 4K media all the way down the line. I think we have a big advantage in that we are building and fitting out a facility from scratch. We are not paying off existing equipment that we need to suck a few more years of paying jobs through.

Our biggest issue is political and social instability, this is the one thing that can still prevent us from setting up here in S.A. at all.

It's always good to have a dose of reality injected into a discussion like this, there's nothing wrong with that. I just think there is a lot of interest brewing under the surface for an entire 4K post solution that doesn't break the bank, and I take my hat off to companies like Red and Assimilate that place thier products in a truely accessible price range.

It's early days for sure, but the point at which that cost/benifit ratio plus increased demand will swing the balance in our favour (and others investing in 4K infrastructure now) will come.

There is currently a window of opportunity, that's all, and it won't last very long once things really start to gain momentum.

In the end, when the doors swing open and the tools are there to be used, it's talent and marketing that will make or break us. That's business.
 
Absolutely right Bruce, even if Apple's Color supported RED 4K and I could run the thing in real time on my Mac Pro, I'd still want the best colourist in the world to be working it
 
"I'd still want the best colourist in the world to be working it"

the word above is "want" - we all WANT this/that but in the end it will come down to $$$
many times the "BEST" work at the houses that have a extreme hr rate ..
so in the end you go with the BEST that you can afford/budget ...
 
Edgar,
Depends on your quality /cost requirements.
Do an offline cut using any basis NLE, then when you’re ready to conform you have a hundred choices from completely raw to very compressed…..from using your offline package costing $1K for onlining, to online grading systems pushing $700K, and an array of other 3D/tracking/compositing products you may use along the way.

One reason I started the diagram was because I figured I could map out what was commonly available and included cost because a lot of people had no idea of pricing or even what software were available. The cost gave an ‘indicator’ of what speed/quality level each package was capable of. The costs of larger systems can vary by $100K’s, much more than the lower end systems of which more people are familiar. I should have included the asterisk meant hardware included.

The offline/online/grading software packages are containers of modules/codecs that are bouncing video footage around at different quality levels & speed. The quality element is 'probably' determined by what are the ingest codecs /transformations, native processing formats/resolutions/maths which goes on inside the app. The speed element is determined by fast & distributed hardware, optimised/clever software or firmware. In regards to mapping speed & quality the only real way would be to benchmark them at different codecs/resolutions because lots of companies would say their package could do this at higher resolutions, but you knew their system would be barely alive for any ‘real time’ functions or take weeks for renders. I started to map out what packages used what codecs/bit resolutions but stopped because I had no idea what native formats /transformations were used in each package. As mentioned, to do a proper comparison you’d need to benchmark each system using test files and defined tasks at various quality levels. Most of the bigger packages had a SDI tape interface. Image I/O means sequence image files i.e. Tiff, DPX.

Thanks for your feedback. Happy to consider rewrites.

Cheers,

Dave,


Luki, can’t make SMPTE, but will be at Ted’s ACS demo on Friday night.

Mike, you’re quite correct, I could add at $2-20K statement with kit breakdown for lower end. Still need the breakdown for higher end kit upgrades, i.e. Stone, Unity. Would also need 3D additional hardware/software options.

Bruce, sorry if it came across fan boy and naïve, but I started the diagram so others could discuss the costly end of town products… I’m hoping in a couple of years there’ll be applications indies can buy, which will be optimised to use 8 CPU’s, multiple GPU’s, multiple disk controller cards for screaming raids, and fibre comms along with cheaper grading panels, projectors etc, that are doing what today’s higher end systems are doing now.
 
david farland said:

Luki, can’t make SMPTE, but will be at Ted’s ACS demo on Friday night.
Click to expand...

Hi David (and anybody else from Oz paying attention here... :) )

I am on the Future Reality stand at SMPTE, and will also be at the ACS presentation on Friday evening - so we can meet there! Ted Schilowitz is also here at the Apple stand with a camera...

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
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